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EVANI

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I do like the EVs, but it's hard to get excited in the same way as ICEs.

You're buying the wrong EVs then ;)

You go on to say you're buying them to be cheap though I see. The EV offer is growing and there's more choice now than ever, from boring run around to balls out weapon. Let's not perpetuate the nonsense that EVs cannot be exciting.
 

saxo_man

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You're buying the wrong EVs then ;)

You go on to say you're buying them to be cheap though I see. The EV offer is growing and there's more choice now than ever, from boring run around to balls out weapon. Let's not perpetuate the nonsense that EVs cannot be exciting.

Mark, personally I dont find EVs exciting, thats all I said, just my opinion. I'm a big advocate of EVs in general however for other reasons ie cost of motoring and tech.
 

gpaevo

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You're buying the wrong EVs then ;)

You go on to say you're buying them to be cheap though I see. The EV offer is growing and there's more choice now than ever, from boring run around to balls out weapon. Let's not perpetuate the nonsense that EVs cannot be exciting.
What's to get excited about? Other than for me the Taycan. I've driven a few Ev's and they bored the balls off me. Tesla model 3 lined up for a few weeks time.

Only one to date that was a weapon was a hybrid, the Panamera Turbo e-hybrid.
 

EVANI

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I'm sure there are people of a certain generation that never get excited by anything other than steam engine's too 🤣
 

FM155

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I just cant see the infrastructure being in place in terms of both charging points and generating capacity to make it viable with the current tax models. Once the tax rises to the levels mentioned above, and other incentives disappear, it won't look in any way viable at all for those looking at it from a cost standpoint.
Add to that the fact that the largest polluter by some margin is in energy production spread across both electricity generation and domestic home heating (no cats on oil or gas boilers..) It doesn't make sense from an environmental standpoint either.

Manufacturing emissions for a large hybrid are in the order of 30tons of carbon. If you only keep it for 3 years, you will be responsible for more emissions than the manufacturing AND tailpipe emissions of a small petrol car.

I know it's all the rage and it makes people feel good about doing less damage to the planet (which they should be doing btw) but the logic doesn't stack up right now. Hydrogen fuel cells or the like are a better solution but all the research money is being soaked up by electric projects.

Frustrating.
 
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Coog

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What's to get excited about? Other than for me the Taycan. I've driven a few Ev's and they bored the balls off me. Tesla model 3 lined up for a few weeks time.

Only one to date that was a weapon was a hybrid, the Panamera Turbo e-hybrid.

Neighbour bought one recently and it's absolutely delightful. I'm sure it was a complete fortune though.
 

colin84

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Meh! I don't like change, even though I realise the change to battery is going to happen. Watched a fairly recent episode of Topgear where Chris's Harris was driving a Tesla, I was surprised how he was still able to throw the car about. Not how I imagined it would be.
 

EVANI

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I just cant see the infrastructure being in place in terms of both charging points and generating capacity

Can you imagine what it was like moving from the horse to the car? We'll never find the oil in sufficient qualities. We'll never be able to transport it round the world/country. We can't possible build all those refineries. You mean we'll have to build fuel station everywhere on the planet? Electricity is ubiquitous, this transition will be so much easier. Sure there are challenges ahead, but in the UK the national grid has asked for the deadline to be brought forward from 2040 they are so confident.

to make it viable with the current tax models. Once the tax rises to the levels mentioned above, and other incentives disappear, it won't look in any way viable at all for those looking at it from a cost standpoint.

You're still thinking like there's an alternative. Transport is electrifying, there's no going back. I have no doubt that government will have to recoup taxation, that's required. We will all benefit in other ways too remember. Also the incentives you mention pale into insignificance next to the ones for the oil industry.

Add to that the fact that the largest polluter by some margin is in energy production spread across both electricity generation and domestic home heating (no cats on oil or gas boilers..) It doesn't make sense from an environmental standpoint either.

Our electricity supply on this island is already 50% renewables and growing.

Electrification of heating is already well underway in new homes in the Republic and we'll catch up here soon too no doubt. Again there are challenges here, especially regarding the existing housing stock.

Manufacturing emissions for a large hybrid are in the order of 30tons of carbon. If you only keep it for 3 years, you will be responsible for more emissions than the manufacturing AND tailpipe emissions of a small petrol car.

Hybrids were a stop-gap that are no longer required now we have 200 and 300 mile cars and charging speeds that are constantly improving too.

I know it's all the rage and it makes people feel good about doing less damage to the planet (which they should be doing btw) but the logic doesn't stack up right now. Hydrogen fuel cells or the like are a better solution but all the research money is being soaked up by electric projects.

EVs are only a piece in the jigsaw. Not sure what you mean that the logic doesn't stack up? BEVs make much more sense for personal transport than Fuel Cells.

1111.jpg

Hydrogen does have a place though, but in larger transportation (buses, trains, boats?). Hydrogen is also being considered as a storage medium, being created from 'waste' wind energy at night which makes more sense.

M.
 
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-Pete-

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i stand to be proved completely wrong in the future but I cant see this being much different to any new piece of tech/hardware in the same way mobile phones and power tools have progressed and plateaued throughout their life spans.

They both took major leaps forward, levelling off before making significant strides again (addition of a camera on a phone being the biggest before touch screen and now multi cameras. Tools having better battery life and moving from Ni-Cad to Ni-mh to the current standard of Li-ion and brushless motors)

I think electric cars will be the same and we haven't got to the crest of the wave yet before the plateau when buying becomes a really plausible option for the everyday man. Pretty much point proved (bar the likes of the nissan leaf or the renault) you're still fairly limited to buying new releases or brand new and I can't see the market taking off properly until joe bloggs can get some of these decent versions on the second hand market. It's still the preserve of the affluent or you boys with too much money burning a hole in your pockets trying to be a new aged hipster while doing the school run (think vw tiguan ad...)
 

-Pete-

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Triggered much?.... :laughing:

Can you imagine what it was like moving from the horse to the car? We'll never find the oil in sufficient qualities. We'll never be able to transport it round the world/country. We can't possible build all those refineries. You mean we'll have to build fuel station everywhere on the planet? Electricity is ubiquitous, this transition will be so much easier. Sure there are challenges ahead, but in the UK the national grid has asked for the deadline to be brought forward from 2040 they are so confident.



You're still thinking like there's an alternative. Transport is electrifying, there's no going back. I have no doubt that government will have to recoup taxation, that's required. We will all will benefit in other ways too remember. Also the incentives you mention pale into insignificance next to the ones for the oil industry.



Our electricity supply on this island is already 50% renewables and growing.

Electrification of heating is already well underway in new homes in the Republic and we'll catch up here soon too no doubt. Again there are challenges here, especially regarding the existing housing stock.



Hybrids were a stop-gap that are no longer required now we have 200 and 300 mile cars and charging speeds that are constantly improving too.



EVs are only a piece in the jigsaw. Not sure what you mean that the logic doesn't stack up? BEVs make much more sense for personal transport than Fuel Cells.

View attachment 253614

Hydrogen does have a place though, but in larger transportation (buses, trains, boats?). Hydrogen is also being considered as a storage medium, being created from 'waste' wind energy at night which makes more sense.

M.
 

Cooper

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I’m not allowed an opinion as I’ll never be able to afford an EV as things are at present.
It’s early days for EVs. They aren’t mainstream. They are too expensive. We don’t currently have the infrastructure. But it is the future.

I know you’re worried we are throwing diesel to the wayside...far from it. I drive one every day! In five years time? Ten? It could well be electric. So I would like to know when to make that choice. When prices are right, range, quality etc.

I do think the changes are exciting. Whole industries are shifting.
 

_James_

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Before check I got up tonight on RMS I was watching a short documentary about German car manufacturers being left behind in the EV market, it seems that they are not willing to let go of the ICE.

I think many that have reservations about EV vehicles haven’t drove one and the range argument for the vast majority of folk is a problem manufactured in their own head. Remember when smartphones came out and people had to start charging their phones EVERYDAY instead of every week..... people got over it, much the same way as they’ll get over hooking their car in at night instead of visiting the pump once a week.
I'm sure there are people of a certain generation that never get excited by anything other than steam engine's too 🤣

Anyone who doesn’t get excited by steam propulsion should be shot dead.
 

FM155

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Can you imagine what it was like moving from the horse to the car? We'll never find the oil in sufficient qualities. We'll never be able to transport it round the world/country. We can't possible build all those refineries. You mean we'll have to build fuel station everywhere on the planet? Electricity is ubiquitous, this transition will be so much easier. Sure there are challenges ahead, but in the UK the national grid has asked for the deadline to be brought forward from 2040 they are so confident.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Oil is currently widely available, I'm not suggesting that we increase fossil based fuel consumption. I'm talking about the fact that the grid infrastructure can't suddenly support the demand for charging electric cars if the usage of EV's increases at the currently predicted rates.

You're still thinking like there's an alternative. Transport is electrifying, there's no going back. I have no doubt that government will have to recoup taxation, that's required. We will all will benefit in other ways too remember. Also the incentives you mention pale into insignificance next to the ones for the oil industry.

I don't have any doubt that things are changing, I just think the pace of change will be limited by infrastructure practicalities. The national grid was recently brought to a standstill because of a couple of generating stations going down. If demand is doubled, where are we going to get the power? Nuclear? No thanks, with the pace of climate change, the chances of natural disasters that could affect the nuclear power stations are greatly increased. Other than Hinkley point, most of the other nuclear stations are in the last throes of their lives also. The balance of generating capacity will move more towards renewables which is great and something I support as you say below. But, what will the picture look like with reduced nuclear generating capacity, reducing oil and gas generation and predicted exponential increase in electicity demand.

Our electricity supply on this island is already 50% renewables and growing.
Yes, understood, see what I've said above.

Electrification of heating is already well underway in new homes in the Republic and we'll catch up here soon too no doubt. Again there are challenges here, especially regarding the existing housing stock.
That statement is a massive over simplification of another step increase in grid demand and modernisation of home heating systems. It's not in any way simple or achievable within the next 10-20 years without a huge government supported programme. That may happen in some form but the money has to come from somewhere.

Hybrids were a stop-gap that are no longer required now we have 200 and 300 mile cars and charging speeds that are constantly improving too.
You missed the point. Whether it is a hybrid or a full EV, the carbon manufacturing footprint of these vehicles is typically 3 times that of a conventional vehicle. The tailpipe emissions vs electricity generation emissions is not going to be as easy as 'renewables' if the demand is much larger than it is today, which it will be. If we are all going to be serious and honest about lowering carbon output, we have to recognise that currently EV's and hybrids are more polluting than a conventional vehicle. With developments in battery technology in particular, that may change but we are not getting there at a rate that makes environmental sense in the short to medium term.

EVs are only a piece in the jigsaw. Not sure what you mean that the logic doesn't stack up? BEVs make much more sense for personal transport than Fuel Cells.

View attachment 253614

Hydrogen does have a place though, but in larger transportation (buses, trains, boats?). Hydrogen is also being considered as a storage medium, being created from 'waste' wind energy at night which makes more sense.

M.

What makes sense is in an urban / suburban setting, we need trains that work. Look at the Dart network around Dublin, pretty good at getting people around without clogging up the roads with single use vehicles (whether fossil powered, hybrids or EV's, whatever!) But you know what the problem with trains is, no infrastructure. So the 'easy' solution that people see is to swap conventional cars for EV's, encouraged by politicians who know nor care for the equally large infrastructure challenges of supporting a swap to EV's and the grid wilting under the demand. These are huge issues which can't be brushed aside and the right decisions need to be taken based on unbiased facts. The fact is that EV's will become very popular very quickly and will run into charging demand issues equally quickly and that will pace adoption rates. So a mix will have to exist until better technology is available as a viable alternative to conventional cars. Right now, it isn't EV's. By the time it can be viable, something else will have come along and they will be obsolete perhaps, who knows?
 

Blackie

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It’s early days for EVs. They aren’t mainstream. They are too expensive. We don’t currently have the infrastructure. But it is the future.

I know you’re worried we are throwing diesel to the wayside...far from it. I drive one every day! In five years time? Ten? It could well be electric. So I would like to know when to make that choice. When prices are right, range, quality etc.

I do think the changes are exciting. Whole industries are shifting.
I’m not against EV’s, I’m simply stating an irrefutable fact, that they aren’t affordable or mainstream as you say, for the majority of folks.

They’re still in their infancy at present and longevity is a real concern and a genuine issue. So far second hand buying is a false economy, unless you’re buying them within a few years of manufacture date, as so ridiculously shown by Top Gear not so long ago when they bought that 8yr old Nissan Leaf.

Now I get that like any second hand car that there will be bad ones and good ones, but we all know from other electronic technologies that battery’s don’t last long and that will have a massive impact on the second hand market for EV’s. Realistically speaking that’s where my vehicles will come from.

So yes, they are the future, but they need an awful lot of development to become as long living as fossil fuelled vehicles, such like my 12yr old 184k mile diesel Vectra.
Ha 🤣

There's just so much FUD and 'opinion' around this stuff, we need to get the facts out there 😉

M.
Correct my FUD and/or opinion here if you would please....

Isn’t the current power infrastructure running at something like 90% or 95% of its capacity?

Also, I’d like to know or hear about real world solutions to charging issues such as those that would be faced by myself, who doesn’t have a driveway but rather a lay-by where I currently park my car? I can’t run an extension lead from the house to said EV to charge it. If I do and say someone trips on it, who is liable for potential claims?
Then there are those who live in apartments or tower blocks, what is the real world solution to charging for those folks?
 
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AlpineF30

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Ive said it before and i’ll say it again.

EV’s do not excite me whatsoever and I don’t care much about them as a vehicle.

However I do also feel the same way about my diesel hatchback I take to work everyday so long as it moves, is comfortable and it has the mod cons I need then its a winner to me.

I’ll never be excited about them but as a tool to get me from A to B in rush hour its only a matter of time before I have one.

Then have the M3 ready to go for when I want to drive something exciting.
 

Coog

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Before check I got up tonight on RMS I was watching a short documentary about German car manufacturers being left behind in the EV market, it seems that they are not willing to let go of the ICE.

I think many that have reservations about EV vehicles haven’t drove one and the range argument for the vast majority of folk is a problem manufactured in their own head. Remember when smartphones came out and people had to start charging their phones EVERYDAY instead of every week..... people got over it, much the same way as they’ll get over hooking their car in at night instead of visiting the pump once a week.


Anyone who doesn’t get excited by steam propulsion should be shot dead.

Range anxiety is a very real thing. If your smartphone runs out of juice you don't need to get the RAC to recover you.

Equally, arriving to a charger and finding its out of order or engaged when you really need it is also a thing.
 

Apis

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Also, I’d like to know or hear about real world solutions to charging issues such as those that would be faced by myself, who doesn’t have a driveway but rather a lay-by where I currently park my car? I can’t run an extension lead from the house to said EV to charge it. If I do and say someone trips on it, who is liable for potential claims?
Then there are those who live in apartments or tower blocks, what is the real world solution to charging for those folks?
They will be tapping into street lamps and attaching charge units to them which will go some way to addressing this. They have chargers in carparks and kerbsides in Oslo for example.
I heard, but can't remember the power figures for the street lamps, but as they convert them to LED, it leaves a surplus of power for attaching chargers which will not be rapid ones but still realistic for overnight parking.
 

EVANI

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Oil is currently widely available, I'm not suggesting that we increase fossil based fuel consumption. I'm talking about the fact that the grid infrastructure can't suddenly support the demand for charging electric cars if the usage of EV's increases at the currently predicted rates.

Yeah you seem to be missing my point/s.

Each year the National Grid in the UK publish their 'Future Energy Scenarios' paper. Have a read of the latest one (July 2019) here for some of the solutions being considered - http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1409/fes-2019.pdf

No one is saying that aren't *many* challenges ahead, but nothing is insurmountable.

And what's the alternative?

M.
 
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EVANI

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Anyone who doesn’t get excited by steam propulsion should be shot dead.

Well our piston cars will be looked at with the same nostalgia by the next generations. They will go to see them on Sundays in the summer at National Trust properties 50 years from now and marvel at how it was ever allowed.

I've had M cars and Japanese rally replicas and the Model 3 is the best car I've ever had. But I guess I'm in the lions den here and not going to convert the die hards :grinning:

M.
 

Lappintyre

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I'm not against EV's either. Had a hybrid for 18 months and it was a joke, ok, my miles weren't the best suited but even for weekend pottering around. 50% of the local charge points weren't working at any given time... and we all know what is required to create the electric in the 1st place, wasn't there a video on here with the electric mini digger that had 2 hours run time and took a massive generator overnight to charge it..

Also, with the free charge points... aren't they EU funded..?

Why aren't more manufacturers going down the hydrogen route?
 

pablo

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we have 2 problems with energy right now:

1. Energy production (power stations)
2. Cars (fossil fuelled).

To say we shouldnt do 2 until 1 is solved is naive. Solving 2 will drive progress on 1. The two can (and should) happen in parallel. Nothing changes overnight we are looking at 20 years plus transition time for each problem so to do them sequentially is insane.

As for charging:

standardised batteries that you rent and swap out stations. roll in and roll out again with a fresh battery. Sure it will cost more than having your own battery and charger but any duff batteries are swallowed up in the system so no big bills. The big gain here isnt cost, its better quality of life for everyone.
 

EVANI

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1. Energy production (power stations)
2. Cars (fossil fuelled).
To say we shouldnt do 2 until 1 is solved is naive. Solving 2 will drive progress on 1.

Exactly 👍 I found the quote from the National Grid...

“Asked whether the UK government’s target to phase out new petrol and diesel cars by 2040 should be brought forward to 2030, Cooper [National Grid] said he believed National Grid “would support a more ambitious target” and could “absolutely” cope in that scenario.”


M.
 
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