The Manual gearbox : Farewell old friend

[Gaz]

On the RMS Blog: Youngsters will not remember this ......... but there was a time when humanity had to actually get off the sofa and walk to the TV to change the channel. There was a time when all food had to be prepared and cooked from scratch, and the notion of having a mini-nuclear reactor in the kitchen heating your ready-made meal seemed preposterous.... (Read the Full Article Here)



Read the Entire Article Here

 

[FM155]

I'm an old duffer who likes manual gearboxes because shifting gears yourself is satisfying.
Driving a high performance road car with DCT or similar is really not possible to stay anyway sensible and within any laws so it will end up getting driven in auto mode like a granny imo.
I prefer manuals but I see the attraction of DCT's in terms of smoothness etc. But, they are not lighter than a manual.

 

[Phil_D]

Great article.

 

[Gaz]

Cheers Phil

I'm a manual lover personally, but also like DCTs - in the right car. I don't think something like the Renaulstsport Clio benefits any better from a DCT than it would a manual, but equally I couldn't imagine a Nissan GTR being as impressive with a traditional 6-spd. I just wouldn't like to see the manual die out completely.

 

[Phil_EK9]

Great article Gaz.

All I'm going to say is, microwaved food might be convenient and faster but its no where near as tasty or satisfying as cooking yourself

 

[chris_b]

Good man @Gaz good read that, well done

 

[Pumesta]

interesting read, I personally detest autoboxes, in saying that the old ones I have driven are the older traditional type of autobox. Just more to go wrong and more expensive to fix. The day after I got the Focus I noticed the wheel alignment was slightly out. Dropped it in to Lindsay's expecting them to stick it on a ramp and align it, oh no as it has electric PAS it needed to go on to the computer as a fault with a module or sensor can throw it out

 

[stevieturbo]

That's one thing at least with a mechanical box...they're relatively cheap. Fancy double clutch boxes are all good and well....but if it just makes them even more unreliable or expensive to repair, it is not a positive step forward in the bigger picture.
Unless of course everyone is buying newer cars with proper warranties then getting rid of them soon after. Then they have less to worry about. But modern cars are getting too silly for their own good. Soon it will get to the point that a first major service will write off the vehicle as beyond economical repair ! lol

Even traditional auto boxes can be very very good, but it will depend on how you intend to drive it. For something around a track etc most would probably hate them.
For daily runabout and commute, I'm amazed more dont use them

 

[saxo_man]

Great read Gary.

 

[Gaz]

Thanks guys

interesting read, I personally detest autoboxes, in saying that the old ones I have driven are the older traditional type of autobox. Just more to go wrong and more expensive to fix. The day after I got the Focus I noticed the wheel alignment was slightly out. Dropped it in to Lindsay's expecting them to stick it on a ramp and align it, oh no as it has electric PAS it needed to go on to the computer as a fault with a module or sensor can throw it out

I think the perception of modern auto/DCT type boxes has been tainted somewhat by people's experiences with traditional autos in their youth, particularly those who have never driven one of the modern breed. Whilst my article is definitely geared towards the joy of driving a full manual, I'm also a fan of modern DCT boxes - with the right implementation - and can see that they can be enjoyed in their own merits, particularly if you want to extract every last ounce of performance from a fast modern car. Older autos do little for me unless they're married to a decent engine - one of the few I liked was in a 928 S4 which I drove extensively, with a 5.0 V8 lump. It's very much a GT car and the auto box was just responsive enough to suit the torquey pull of that engine on wide open roads, and Porsche had obviously configured it well enough to perfectly kick up or down when needed. Some of them are woefully mistimed.

And at the opposite end of the spectrum, one of the most soul-less driving experiences I ever had was driving a 1.0 automatic Fiesta years ago (plain old auto, not the later CVT box) - I think a decent ride-on lawnmower would have been a more enjoyable and possibly faster means of transport!

 

[Woodcutter]

Superb article Gaz!

I'm torn between manual and auto/DSG/DCT if I'm honest, sometimes I'm a lazy git and really want the car to change gear for me, but when you're in something fast it's nice to do the work yourself.

Auto for daily and manual for weekend fun I think is the way to go, although the more modern cars are awesome with their PDK/DSG/DCT boxes. For me I don't think there is a simple answer!

 

[Gaz]

It's a complex issue alright. Lots of variables - what style of driving you do, is it your main/2nd vehicle, what type of roads are you on, do you queue a lot in your commute, etc. But yes, a smooth auto daily and a manual for weekend fun would be the perfect combination.

I can't imagine for the life of me that manual will be the norm in 15 or 20 years time, especially when a lot of cars will have hybrid engines and numerous electronics augmenting them.

 

[Alan_B]

My 330D is the first auto I've had. The gearbox is fairly good, you get a duff change the very odd time, especially after a long period of time on cruise control. That said, the auto suits the car perfectly.

Cannot wait to get the Mr2 back on the road though for that fantastic short throw box though!

 

[nobby]

when i drive a car i want to be part of the experience and be involved and make the decisions ... not the car. Thats why i love manual gearboxes
in today's world more and more manufacturers are obsessed with technological advancement that disengages the driver from actually driving the car. driving is almost secondary to driving in modern cars. the amount of automation is terrifying for general enthusiastic driver/motorists. we are probably in a minority and people just see cars as getting to point a and b and home again.
also i appreciate that certain cars require an auto unit in order to get the best of them, due to power and how it is put through the drivetrain ... this is where you cant discount an auto i guess. i for one would hate to see the manual tranny go ... but the way motoring is going and the driver appeal of a modern car bar a few cars is being diluted by stupid numbers in terms of power and torque and limitless driver aids the writing could be on the wall.

 

[johnb740]

Thanks guys



I think the perception of modern auto/DCT type boxes has been tainted somewhat by people's experiences with traditional autos in their youth, particularly those who have never driven one of the modern breed. Whilst my article is definitely geared towards the joy of driving a full manual, I'm also a fan of modern DCT boxes - with the right implementation - and can see that they can be enjoyed in their own merits, particularly if you want to extract every last ounce of performance from a fast modern car. Older autos do little for me unless they're married to a decent engine - one of the few I liked was in a 928 S4 which I drove extensively, with a 5.0 V8 lump. It's very much a GT car and the auto box was just responsive enough to suit the torquey pull of that engine on wide open roads, and Porsche had obviously configured it well enough to perfectly kick up or down when needed. Some of them are woefully mistimed.

And at the opposite end of the spectrum, one of the most soul-less driving experiences I ever had was driving a 1.0 automatic Fiesta years ago (plain old auto, not the later CVT box) - I think a decent ride-on lawnmower would have been a more enjoyable and possibly faster means of transport!

Totally agree.

The modern auto's and DCT's are quantum leaps ahead of the old shlushmatics of yesteryear.

I felt the 8 speed ZF auto in my old M135i added to the experience and not detract from it. Suited the car perfectly and once I got used to shifting using the paddles I had alot more fun on the move than I would with for example my very much analogue E36 M3.

People have been ruined by the old shlushers that only gave you a gear when they felt like it. The new era of auto's means seamless, instant gear shifting.

Clutch pedal and stick are the things more suited for cars which you propel by putting your feet thorugh the florr and yelling "Yabba Dabba Doo"

 

[Johnboy1984]

I have a manual m3, the only reason I do is because the smg in the e46 was shockingly bad. It is ridiculously unreliable and it clunks and jerks like you wouldn't believe ( it's a manual box with a pump bolted on)... The newer generation of semi autos like the bmw dct boxes and the gtr etc are in a different league..

I still can't get my head round why anyone would want to pick a manual car new now when the semi auto boxes are so good. As has been said, people are put off because of earlier attempts so the default mindset is "manual every time"... The manual box is also popular here for some reason.

Manual is a pain in the balls, especially if you commute in traffic. I recently drove a brand new m3 with dct round a tight b road and if anything it added to the experience. Able to concentrate more on the road and not having to arse about with clutches and notchy manual boxes.. I say good riddance to it personally

 

[FM155]

I've had another read at this because I am pre-disposed to not like anything that is not manual. It's a good article, well written, and a fair statement of where we are today and where we are likely going with or without a manual box. I think the reason people here will be reluctant to go with anything other than manuals is due to the potential repair bills if a DCT / DSG goes wrong. As those systems are further developed, the reliability issues will (and perhaps have) already subsided.

I guess my point is that I enjoy driving and on the road, I get a lot of satisfaction from just 'making good progress' rather than trying to go flat out. I spent ages when I was younger trying to perfect heel and toe down changes which I always use as it is easier on the clutch and gearbox. I don't want to loose that involvement or direct input to how smoothly the car drives which is why I will hang onto a manual for as long as possible. I think the most relevant car to this issue is the Cayman GT4, a car that has a 2 year waiting list already because it has the driver involvement that people want. Don't get me wrong, in my lottery garage, there would be a GT3 RS beside it. Thing is, it would probably be a 997 4.0 ...

 

[Gaz]

I've had another read at this because I am pre-disposed to not like anything that is not manual. It's a good article, well written, and a fair statement of where we are today and where we are likely going with or without a manual box. I think the reason people here will be reluctant to go with anything other than manuals is due to the potential repair bills if a DCT / DSG goes wrong. As those systems are further developed, the reliability issues will (and perhaps have) already subsided.

I guess my point is that I enjoy driving and on the road, I get a lot of satisfaction from just 'making good progress' rather than trying to go flat out. I spent ages when I was younger trying to perfect heel and toe down changes which I always use as it is easier on the clutch and gearbox. I don't want to loose that involvement or direct input to how smoothly the car drives which is why I will hang onto a manual for as long as possible. I think the most relevant car to this issue is the Cayman GT4, a car that has a 2 year waiting list already because it has the driver involvement that people want. Don't get me wrong, in my lottery garage, there would be a GT3 RS beside it. Thing is, it would probably be a 997 4.0 ...

Funny you mention the Cayman GT4, I read a review on it last night and the gearbox was singled out for praise. Suits the character and ethos of the car perfectly, and it's encouraging to see that Porsche didn't fire a PDK box into it - particularly given that the GT4's engine is lifted straight from the 911 Carrera so there would have been no technological or financial problems sourcing that box and fitting it.

You make an interesting point about heel and toe being easier on the clutch and gearbox, and aids how smoothly the car drives. Do you consider dual-clutch setups to be every bit as gentle (it's practically impossible to screw up a gear change, and the changes are pretty smooth in normal modes given the use of dual clutches)?

 

[FM155]

Yes, absolutely, there is no doubt that the double clutch systems are easier on the mechanics of the gearbox than a manual. I like being in control of making that happen myself though.
My reluctance to buy in to double clutch philosophy is also that it will always be heavier and cars are already heavy enough thanks. I want lighter cars.
I'm still trying to come to terms with ABS FFS LOL but DSG? OMG....

 

[Apis]

Are heel and toe changes even possible on modern cars? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know. The only manual cars I've owned in the last few years have been VW and Ford and none of them can do a nice clean rev while on the brake at the same time. ( I use the side of my foot, not my heel) And left foot braking while on the gas is impossible...it just cuts the power.
Is it the same with all modern manuals?

 

[Artoir]

Heel and Toeing coming into a bend while wrestling the wheel with one hand, or a twitch of your ring finger.

I know which is faster, but what's more fun?

 

[Lyons]

I have no interest in DCT cars. I'm not used to the same calibre of cars that most of you guys are, which may lend themselves better to that sort of gear change, but for me having a manual gear stick is all part of the experience. I know the A8 had a tiptronic box and not a dual clutch, but the principle is the same in that it changes gear for you, and its not manual. It was great in traffic, but for 90% of driving I hated it and couldn't wait to get back into a manual.

 

[Coog]

Slush boxes and DCT are totally different animals. Comparing a tiptronic to DSG is like comparing apples with oranges. The only similarity is the hand motion to change gear, that's it. DSG is much more aggressive, it's direct and it feels totally right on a hoon. I've sold automatic BMW's before because the slush box just destroys the B road driving experience. I test drove a fairly modern E90 slusher too and to be honest it was no use for anything other than dithering about in and I rejected the car on that basis.

What I personally found is that the movement of my left leg (which is essentially the only difference between DSG and a manual) was totally irrelevant as 99.9% of my fast-driving focus is on picking braking points, lines and the right gear. I'm not really that bothered by the left leg action. The ONLY time I'd want a clutch is RWD fun so I can kick the life out of it and/or if the choice was between a slusher and manual.

 

[Lyons]

Slush boxes and DCT are totally different animals. Comparing a tiptronic to DSG is like comparing apples with oranges.

I knew someone would say that. I'm not talking about the mechanics of the whole thing though, I'm simply saying in a manual car you change gear with a gear stick, and a triptronic and DSG are alike in that the car changes gear for you or you have paddles. Forget about the technology (I'm simple and it means nothing to me), I just mean the basic principle of changing gear with a stick!

 

[Coog]

I changed gear with a stick in my DSG.