Electric cars and infrastructure in the future, my thoughts

[Maranellohouse]

Based purely on my own perceptions and observations and using Northern Ireland as my location.

So the government in London want to get rid of all diesel cars by 2025 and push as many of us as possible towards electricity cars as they will save the planet. I know there are hybrids but they still use fossil fuels. That’s great but what if you don’t live in London and live in the little country called Northern Ireland. I see issues ahead.
Let’s start with what happens when the little light on the dash pops on saying “check batteries” on current electricity cars here. Apparently a new set of batteries at today’s prices are around £8k. It will presumably be less of course as technology progresses. You’ve had the car, what, 8 years or there abouts so do you stump up the £8k for new batteries for a car that cost quite a bit more than a diesel/petrol car in the first place or do you sell the car (who wants an electric car that’s 8 years old with worn batteries and old battery technology) buy a new one and start the process again.

Now I’ll admit I don’t know the answer to this (someone will be along to correct me) but say I own the car, how do I dispose of the old batteries if I decide to keep the car. Do I have to pay for a certified electricity person to take the old ones out and fit the new ones and if so what expense is that going to be? Then there is of course the obvious what happens to the used batteries? I don’t know of any recycling facilities in Northern Ireland at the minute so I’m guessing they have to be crated up and put on a big diesel powered ship (cause I don’t know of any electricity powered freighters in use at the moment and doubt they would make their way to NI, China is working on one I do know that but it’s a few years off yet) to be sent to another country for recycling or put in landfill. The recycling facility will most likely be fossil powered and we all know what happens to batteries in landfill.
This then moves us on to the next big issue, charging the car. Ok as things progress charging times will get quicker and cars will go further on a charge but the cars still need charged. How’s that going to work for a family who’s husband, wife and daughter/son each own an electricity car, live in a terrace house with on street parking only. Northern Ireland towns are full of situations ripe for this scenario. Actually at present even if you only have one car in this situation how do you run a supply to the car?

Getting about is next. At present electricity only cars (unless you own a £50K plus Tesla) have a very small range. So you go to work or to your local park and ride and where do you plug your car in? nearly all carparks I’ve been at have a max of 3 electricity spaces. Where I am for instance there is no facility whatsoever for employees to plug a car in and correct me please but I don’t know of to many businesses who are thinking ahead for their employees and putting in charging stations because things are tight and there is no business gain to justify the expense.

Even the public carpark (which I’m not allowed to park in because its for the public) has only 2 spaces and even though there have been complaints there are no plans to put anymore in.

Finally (yes my observations are almost done) there is the general infrastructure as a whole for charging facilities. We’ve had no government for over a year now so even if they got back into work now and they had any real interest in future proofing the country to accommodate electricity cars we will years behind anywhere else in any proposals put forward turning to reality, bringing us dangerously close to the 2025 proposed deadline. Also while there is no government and therefore no forward thinking anything that has been approved up to now will have little or no accommodation implemented for charge points and there will have to be massive infrastructure upset ahead due to having to retrospectively fit charging points.

Finally finally, how is the national grid going to be/being future proofed to cope with the amount of cars being charged at the same time when it struggles to cope with kettles being boiled due to the xmas special Corporation Street being on.

As said at the start these are purely my own thoughts and wonderings, I haven’t took electric lorries, busses, trains, vans, tractors, fork lifts etc into the equation.

Note:- I’ve been into cars and technology pretty much all of my life so by the very fact I have all the above questions and I don’t really know what’s actually right how does anyone not into cars know what the right buying decision is for the future?

 

[Coog]

Companies are popping up left right and centre that can diagnose and refurbish dead cells. The business model for a lot of electric car manufacturers appears to be heading towards battery rental, so you won't actually own that part of the car anyway. I guess it just becomes part of your new fuel bill and if the battery dies then the manufacturer sorts out re-manufacture.

Infrastructure might struggle but there's several hours of the day that most people are sleeping and demand drops, so perhaps we will be charging overnight and not during the day. I think the charging at home solution is a bit old hat too if I'm honest. I reckon it should be the car that's the power plant running the house and not the other way round.

I also think hard line plugs and leads are a thing of the past. I can charge my toothbrush, mobile phone and even my car keys wirelessly so the tech is there to do it for EMVs. All we need is the technology built into cars, car parks, driveways or the road network.

We're a long way off perfection. We're also a long way off London and banning diesels & ICV's here too. Modern turbo petrols are perfectly frugal and no less reliable than their modern diesel counterparts. I doubt we'll see any significant change in the next 40 years.

 

[Nicky]

The process of manufacturering the batteries for an electric car and the mining involved in acquiring the required materials has a massive carbon footprint, one that is an additional amount over and above the current footprint to create the rest of the car.

Add to that the need to perform the same process 8 years later for new batteries along with whatever astronomical costs they will charge for the replacement batteries and the carbon footprint of producing, maintaining and running the car for at least 16 years and I would imagine it far exceeds what it takes to run an economical petrol or diesel motor.

I understand the need for alternative fuel sources as fossil fuel levels deplete, but I don’t see how battery power is the answer. Yes, short term and on paper it makes fantastic sense, but the bigger picture from what I can see isn’t a good one for batteries which are made from another already depleting source.

Basically the whole thing in my uneducated opinion is a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but making it sound like you’re doing Peter a favour in the process.

 

[FM155]

I run a 22 year old Alfa as my daily, I reckon that will be ever more diffiult for more modern IC cars in 20 odd years time and close to impossible for pure EV cars.
The carbon footprint of EV's is in reality more or less on a parr or maybe more than an equivalent IC car but it is very difficult to get a proper set of data that stands any scrutiny because the IC and EV lobbyists all have an agenda and all data becomes biased as a result.
Gawd knows what future legislation will bring but I'm pretty sure it will have more to do with lining peoples pockets than environmental welfare.

 

[Ghost]

Go Nuclear. End all problems. Plus we can hold of Russia and China.

 

[Big Pimp]

One of the biggest issues I see also is towing.

I went down to the pre launch of the Jag I-Pace this day last week and was really impressed with it. But it still only has a 750kg towing limit.

For that reason alone they are no good to me

 

[pablo]

battery rental. renatl company recycles/decommissions
standardised battery sizes for easy swapping in "recharge stations". swap for $$$ or recharge for $
even if electric is supplied by fossil fuels you have solved 1 out of 2 problems
air quality in cities greatly increased

 

[Cartunes]

Stewart/ Stuart for first Minister!

I'm working in the field @Maranellohouse , as you possibly know, and these questions have been posed for many years. Solutions are being worked on and can be put in place to satisfy most drivers. There will have to be investment in clean power generation and infrastructure but for me, the biggest change will have to be with the public's attitude that driving a personally owned, globe-choking vehicle is their civil right. Currently, after 40 plus years of cheap personal motoring, many see this as a right, but I see it as a privilege. That privilege is getting more expensive year by year and may become too expensive for many in the next 20 years. One thing that I predict is that our habits will have to change drastically.
There are many options being considered for the power generation and distribution as we discuss this subject.
As for the 50k electric vehicle price tag, I believe that sir has used hyperbole to display his opinion. A Nissan leaf starts at £27,235. All car companies are working to make electric motoring both cheaper and safer so we all avoid emulating Richard Hammond's Rimac fire, even after racing on alpine or craigantlet hills.....
Battery technology is one major concern. They haven't "arrived" yet. "range anxiety" rules in the life of the long-distance EV driver but the boffins will come up with something safer and with greater energy density and quick charging inside the next few years, I'm confident of that.
End of life high voltage car batteries can be used in power storage facilities - my line manager at Lotus has headed several projects regarding this over the last few years. An 8 grand, 400 volt battery now, will save the car owner more than that over the life of the vehicle and still be worth something when it has depleted to a level where it is not practical to use in a car, van or truck.

I'm not dismissing your questions, they are very valid and widely held.

I'm a fan of reversing globalisation, which, for all its wonderful advances, has caused many if not more of a negative effect on civilisation. I'm by no means a tree- hugging, tofu-munching activist by saying that, merely weighing up pros and cons using evidence! Many experts agree that we have to stop burning fossil fuels NOW! Before we suffocate the planet.

I for one will have fun working as as a very small wheel in a large machine that is trying to work on solving the problems that you have raised. I also would give up my polluting cars if and when the time comes in order to try living a more sustainable, healthy lifestyle. My work dictates that I fly around the world to attend meetings ( off to China next month). My work digs dictate that I use a car to travel 30 to 300 miles per day. I'd give it all up tomorrow if I could return home and cycle to a job that paid the bills!

 

[56oval]

The battery at 8k wont even come into play when every single person will be renting their vehicles.

Its the future, manufacturers already know it. Thats why a Golf in just above poverty spec is 20+ grand now. Everything is going up in price and you can be sure £300 a month looks like a better option than an overpriced car, and they know it.

 

[Chris666]

NI will have enough trouble within the next year or so just keeping lights on. My neighbour has an electric car, of the charge points locally, most are parked in by fossil fuelled vehicles and one doesn't work so realistically his car is a paperweight.. I haven't seen it for a week or two so it may well be in Larne Lough

 

[pablo]

can they not charge it at home? most electric cars would do a mild commute for a week on a charge.

 

[Chris666]

No drives, would need an extension lead trailing out

 

[impact]

Part of works business is drives for EV vehicles and the general consensus is 15-20% BEV (battery only) car sales by 2030 moving to 25% by 2040. Obviously higher again once you start counting MHEV, FHEV and PHEV which will make up most of the rest. ICE sales are only on the downward path from this point on and Fuel Cell is likely to kick in in anger in the late 2020's and steadily rising quickly.
EV will be geared towards more smaller stuff and Fuel Cell will be target for larger cars and heavy lorries. I think Toyota already have an FC lorry on long term trial in California that is not only cleaner to run but out pulls diesel trucks.
I expect range anxiety woes will be gone for most in 5 years or so and expect more Chinese EV vehicles to become normal as they are investing in it bigly.

I'd imagine market forces will fix any resulting changing circumstances from the above, don't remember any other time in history where the lights went out because somebody forgot to build a powerstation or capitalism forgot to invent something to sell to somebody. The whole full electric and no drive thing seems a bit of problem though.

Now to win the lottery or sell one of the kids to reserve one of these Lucid

 

[roverspeed]

Companies are popping up left right and centre that can diagnose and refurbish dead cells. The business model for a lot of electric car manufacturers appears to be heading towards battery rental, so you won't actually own that part of the car anyway. I guess it just becomes part of your new fuel bill and if the battery dies then the manufacturer sorts out re-manufacture.

Infrastructure might struggle but there's several hours of the day that most people are sleeping and demand drops, so perhaps we will be charging overnight and not during the day. I think the charging at home solution is a bit old hat too if I'm honest. I reckon it should be the car that's the power plant running the house and not the other way round.

I also think hard line plugs and leads are a thing of the past. I can charge my toothbrush, mobile phone and even my car keys wirelessly so the tech is there to do it for EMVs. All we need is the technology built into cars, car parks, driveways or the road network.

We're a long way off perfection. We're also a long way off London and banning diesels & ICV's here too. Modern turbo petrols are perfectly frugal and no less reliable than their modern diesel counterparts. I doubt we'll see any significant change in the next 40 years.

Wireless charging is very inefficient and much slower than conventional.

Even at present with normal wired charging, 2 Tesla's can't supercharge side by side at a dedicated Tesla recharger because of the massive current draw.

 

[Coog]

Wireless charging is very inefficient and much slower than conventional.

Even at present with normal wired charging, 2 Tesla's can't supercharge side by side at a dedicated Tesla recharger because of the massive current draw.

Looks like the tech is here already. I guess like with everything, the technology will improve

Meet Plugless | The Wireless EV Charging Station

 

[saxo_man]

We have just ordered a fully electric Kia Soul to replace my leased fully electric Merc. With a seven year warranty it’s hard to beat.

 

[saxo_man]

My neighbour has an electric car, of the charge points locally, most are parked in by fossil fuelled vehicles and one doesn't work so realistically his car is a paperweight.

That’s a shame. It takes some planning with an electric car, and we never rely solely on public charging points. Two years now and 13000 miles (260 hours) fully electric , it’s a fantastic way to drive.

 

[Chris666]

That’s a shame. It takes some planning with an electric car, and we never rely solely on public charging points. Two years now and 13000 miles (260 hours) fully electric , it’s a fantastic way to drive.

When the time comes that our car dies a horrible grinding death, we're definitely going to be looking at electric. Hopefully by then the charging infrastructure has improved a bit, wouldn't mind going down into the town for an hour or two while it charges. For the most part, the car only really does stupidly short journeys (I know ) so a charge is going to be good for weeks

I would totally consider one of these though Zero Motorcycles (Europe) || Zero S Electric Motorcycle

 

[stevieturbo]

They want fossil fuel cars out of London.....how the **** are they going to charge hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles in London ?

Northern Ireland would struggle with it, and it's tiny with few vehicles and people. London wouldnt stand a chance for so many reasons, with parking and extension leads being one....the actual grid not being able to cope etc etc

They should simply enforce all buses and black taxis to be electric, and leave private owners alone. Or commercial vehicles that need to be able to carry loads and cover miles would need to be given a by ball....to supply their stupid city with goods, as there's little chance electric vehicles will be able to !

 

[Cartunes]

They want fossil fuel cars out of London.....how the **** are they going to charge hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles in London ?

Northern Ireland would struggle with it, and it's tiny with few vehicles and people. London wouldnt stand a chance for so many reasons, with parking and extension leads being one....the actual grid not being able to cope etc etc

They should simply enforce all buses and black taxis to be electric, and leave private owners alone. Or commercial vehicles that need to be able to carry loads and cover miles would need to be given a by ball....to supply their stupid city with goods, as there's little chance electric vehicles will be able to !

Seriously Stevie...... have you got an opinion on the matter? I sense you are trying to tell us something.

 

[stevieturbo]

Seriously Stevie...... have you got an opinion on the matter? I sense you are trying to tell us something.

it's hard to know what will come first.....a workable government here or mainstream electric cars !!

 

[impact]

it's hard to know what will come first.....a workable government here or mainstream electric cars !!

Mainstream flying cars before the former happens.

 

[Nicky]

The process of manufacturering the batteries for an electric car and the mining involved in acquiring the required materials has a massive carbon footprint, one that is an additional amount over and above the current footprint to create the rest of the car.

Add to that the need to perform the same process 8 years later for new batteries along with whatever astronomical costs they will charge for the replacement batteries and the carbon footprint of producing, maintaining and running the car for at least 16 years and I would imagine it far exceeds what it takes to run an economical petrol or diesel motor.

I understand the need for alternative fuel sources as fossil fuel levels deplete, but I don’t see how battery power is the answer. Yes, short term and on paper it makes fantastic sense, but the bigger picture from what I can see isn’t a good one for batteries which are made from another already depleting source.

Basically the whole thing in my uneducated opinion is a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but making it sound like you’re doing Peter a favour in the process.

 

[stevieturbo]

All such reports will have a bias one way or the other.

What electric will do, whether it creates more pollution overall or not, is at least regulate where the pollution occurs and might be dealt with. At the minute, part of their naive dream is to reduce pollution in cities.

Mind you ignoring the likes of buses, home heating and other sources of CO2/pollution...and the simple fact of too many people. Cars themselves that are pretty damn clean....are not really the problem, but they are the easiest to penalise for more money.

And creating congestion causing measures in cities like they are currently doing here....really isnt going to help any aspect of it all ! Vehicles and people unable to move because of road/lane restrictions is no way to reduce pollution. It just makes it worse !

 

[Alan_B]

Two electric cars have been in my household and they were both utterly ****. The leaf was pretty dire range wise and took ages to recharge, the Zoe much better in both respects but until they are as convenient as petrol or diesel. . . . .they will still be ****. Everything in modern life is designed to make your life easier and more convenient, but electric cars fall far short. Tesla are the closest, but still would not convince me on quality / longevity.