Rear Toe In VW AG MQB Platform

[revlimiter]

Hi,

Is rear toe in really needed on a road car?

I have had a 2015 SEAT LEON FR 5F with the multilink rear suspension setup for 3 years now and covered 105k (75k in my time). It’s the same as the MK7 Golf GTD underneath.

My issue is it’s always had an appetite for rear tyres. I’ve always had 4 matching Goodyear Eagle F1 tyres on the car changing what I had to with the latest model now the asymmetric 5’s. 225/45/17 94 load rating for a bit of added pot hole protection with the stiffer sidewalls.

I’ve had 4 wheel alignment carried out several times since I’ve had it at different places with several bad experiences. I had it done last on a Hunter HawkEye machine and really thought this would solve my issue. Straight off the machine the car felt great and didn’t pull to either side but the steering wheel was no longer centred.

This instantly did my tits in and knew I couldn’t live with it so back I went. The staff were great and were keen to get it sorted for me. They actually allowed me to hook up the laptop and use VCDS to monitor the steering angle sensor on the car rather than eyeball how level the steering wheel was. No doubt at this point they thought I was mental but once it read 0.00 degrees they locked the steering wheel in position.

Once off the lift everything was perfect, car ran true, no pulling to either side and most importantly the steering wheel was exactly centred when going in a straight line. Obviously I was chuffed with that despite the near £60 cost.

A few months after having this done and the weather deteriorating I found the car keen to loose traction at the back as in totally sideways on lift off. I had also noticed the car would tramline terribly in grooves in the road where our friends at Phoenix Gas had ever so carefully reinstated the surface.

After a quick inspection it was clear the rear tyres are heavily worn on the outsides with the rear passenger side being the worse of the two...totally bald on the outer most 30mm. Where the tread meets the side wall there is obvious scrubbing as the rubber is balled or rolled up. Standing looking at the rear of the car with the naked eye you can see there is a fair bit of negative camber as expected but if this was excessive it would wear the inside of the rear tyres not the outside. The angles of the body work don’t help but looking down from above you can see significant toe in which I assume is causing this excessive outer wear and lack of rear traction in the wet.

So two new year tyres are required and yet another alignment done! So back to my original question...is it necessary to run any toe in at the rear or could they just be set dead ahead. How would this affect handling or stability etc?

I’m sure there are some of you experiment with toe settings on track all the time that can answer my questions. Pretty sure I read somewhere that front wheel drive touring cars often run toe out at the rear to aid turn in but it makes them a handful until the tyres heat up. Anyway hopefully someone has an educated opinion.

Cheers,

James

 

[Ruairi83]

I’ve been to loads of places with few Audi MQB cars to be tracked. Always the same and tracking off with issues etc. After going to JB tyres tobermore, I haven’t went anywhere else as the car is tracked and set properly and never had any bother since. It’s a 80mile round trip for it and £70 for 4 wheel alignment but worth it. Id speak to them on phone and say your issue to see what they say.

 

[revlimiter]

Thanks for that il give them a shout. I’m literally at the stage that I’ve spent a small fortune on alignment. If I could just get the rear set correctly once and for all that would be something. Hence I’m tempted just to have the rears set with no toe what so ever but I don’t know what that would do to the handling.

 

[Michael44]

Hi,

Is rear toe in really needed on a road car?

I have had a 2015 SEAT LEON FR 5F with the multilink rear suspension setup for 3 years now and covered 105k (75k in my time). It’s the same as the MK7 Golf GTD underneath.

My issue is it’s always had an appetite for rear tyres. I’ve always had 4 matching Goodyear Eagle F1 tyres on the car changing what I had to with the latest model now the asymmetric 5’s. 225/45/17 94 load rating for a bit of added pot hole protection with the stiffer sidewalls.

I’ve had 4 wheel alignment carried out several times since I’ve had it at different places with several bad experiences. I had it done last on a Hunter HawkEye machine and really thought this would solve my issue. Straight off the machine the car felt great and didn’t pull to either side but the steering wheel was no longer centred.

This instantly did my tits in and knew I couldn’t live with it so back I went. The staff were great and were keen to get it sorted for me. They actually allowed me to hook up the laptop and use VCDS to monitor the steering angle sensor on the car rather than eyeball how level the steering wheel was. No doubt at this point they thought I was mental but once it read 0.00 degrees they locked the steering wheel in position.

Once off the lift everything was perfect, car ran true, no pulling to either side and most importantly the steering wheel was exactly centred when going in a straight line. Obviously I was chuffed with that despite the near £60 cost.

A few months after having this done and the weather deteriorating I found the car keen to loose traction at the back as in totally sideways on lift off. I had also noticed the car would tramline terribly in grooves in the road where our friends at Phoenix Gas had ever so carefully reinstated the surface.

After a quick inspection it was clear the rear tyres are heavily worn on the outsides with the rear passenger side being the worse of the two...totally bald on the outer most 30mm. Where the tread meets the side wall there is obvious scrubbing as the rubber is balled or rolled up. Standing looking at the rear of the car with the naked eye you can see there is a fair bit of negative camber as expected but if this was excessive it would wear the inside of the rear tyres not the outside. The angles of the body work don’t help but looking down from above you can see significant toe in which I assume is causing this excessive outer wear and lack of rear traction in the wet.

So two new year tyres are required and yet another alignment done! So back to my original question...is it necessary to run any toe in at the rear or could they just be set dead ahead. How would this affect handling or stability etc?

I’m sure there are some of you experiment with toe settings on track all the time that can answer my questions. Pretty sure I read somewhere that front wheel drive touring cars often run toe out at the rear to aid turn in but it makes them a handful until the tyres heat up. Anyway hopefully someone has an educated opinion.

Cheers,

James

I cant comment on the settings of this particular car but a little bit of toe in on the rear is fairly normal but not to the extent that you could see it just with a visual inspection and not to the extent that there would be extreme tyre wear.
Did you get a report from the last alignment adjustment and if so how do the figures compare with the recommended manufacturers settings?
Excessive negative camber would also account for poor traction in the wet.

 

[swansty]

Thanks for that il give them a shout. I’m literally at the stage that I’ve spent a small fortune on alignment. If I could just get the rear set correctly once and for all that would be something. Hence I’m tempted just to have the rears set with no toe what so ever but I don’t know what that would do to the handling.

You are in Bangor. Go to Ivan Kerr Tyres. the IVAN bit is important. @RubberLover. As per @ruairi83 i had nothing but hassle trying to get places to do a proper alignment. Ivan Kerrs sorted it and have a good reputation on here. I've only heard good things about JB tyres also but they are quite far away.

 

[Apis]

Did anyone ever check for wear in the bushes? Meaning it looks fine on the ramp but then one bush could have excessive movement when cornering or braking.

 

[revlimiter]

I cant comment on the settings of this particular car but a little bit of toe in on the rear is fairly normal but not to the extent that you could see it just with a visual inspection and not to the extent that there would be extreme tyre wear.
Did you get a report from the last alignment adjustment and if so how do the figures compare with the recommended manufacturers settings?
Excessive negative camber would also account for poor traction in the wet.

I thought that myself hence I’m thinking about just making it easy and going for no toe at all. I had a Volvo C30 before and it had very noticeable almost alarming negative camber at the rear but was to spec, this isn’t as extreme as that so assuming from the lack of inner wear it’s ok. It seems to be 9 out of 10 places either “have no paper” or “the printers broken”. If you ever do get a print out I’m not sure how much faith to have in them, all they prove is that the operator is only interested in getting the specs within tolerance rather than spot on.

Did anyone ever check for wear in the bushes? Meaning it looks fine on the ramp but then one bush could have excessive movement when cornering or braking.

Yes I had the technician check the bushes front and rear at the last alignment and he reported they were all spot on but I do take your point. I had a fully poly bushes car before abs I swore never again for a daily.

 

[revlimiter]

You are in Bangor. Go to Ivan Kerr Tyres. the IVAN bit is important. @RubberLover. As per @ruairi83 i had nothing but hassle trying to get places to do a proper alignment. Ivan Kerrs sorted it and have a good reputation on here. I've only heard good things about JB tyres also but they are quite far away.

I have good confidence in the last place I went (one of the two you mentioned), very friendly, took good care of the car and put up with me wanting everything perfect. I’m likely to go back there again it’s just almost as if it was the wrong settings were used or the factory settings eat rear tyres to enhance the handling which is why I’m tempted to use no toe at the rear

 

[Michael44]

I thought that myself hence I’m thinking about just making it easy and going for no toe at all. I had a Volvo C30 before and it had very noticeable almost alarming negative camber at the rear but was to spec, this isn’t as extreme as that so assuming from the lack of inner wear it’s ok. It seems to be 9 out of 10 places either “have no paper” or “the printers broken”. If you ever do get a print out I’m not sure how much faith to have in them, all they prove is that the operator is only interested in getting the specs within tolerance rather than spot on.

Yes I had the technician check the bushes front and rear at the last alignment and he reported they were all spot on but I do take your point. I had a fully poly bushes car before abs I swore never again for a daily.

I think the first step is to find out what it should be for your exact model of car rather than relying on the alignment place to know what it should be. Manufacturers figures should be a good starting point but usually tend towards safe handling and economy rather than performance. Plus they usually have a wide range to account for manufacturing tolerances.
Then do some research on forums to find out what others are using for a similar car.

 

[Apis]

I think the first step is to find out what it should be for your exact model of car rather than relying on the alignment place to know what it should be. Manufacturers figures should be a good starting point but usually tend towards safe handling and economy rather than performance. Plus they usually have a wide range to account for manufacturing tolerances.
Then do some research on forums to find out what others are using for a similar car.

Aren't the manufacturer's figures in the computer already, based on make, model, year? Or maybe it's the VIN, not sure.
When I see it done they just adjust it -ve, +ve until computer says YES.

 

[gingfto]

May be similar given the multi link setup...in the past had a few places tell me that the rear camber wasn’t adjustable on my mk4 golf - it was, 4wd version with multi link had possibility of adjusting the slots where the arm meets the chassis when the bolts are loosened.
Wondering if someone in the past has adjusted it slightly or it’s out due to an impact/driving and hasn’t been picked up as adjustable by the alignment guys as “it’s front wheel drive sure”.
Positive camber could give outer tyre wear potentially.

 

[Michael44]

Aren't the manufacturer's figures in the computer already, based on make, model, year? Or maybe it's the VIN, not sure.
When I see it done they just adjust it -ve, +ve until computer says YES.

Ideally yes, although it it does no harm going in with all the figures as to how you want it set.
Having seen the results of a few ”professional” 4 wheel alignments I just do my own.

 

[revlimiter]

I think the first step is to find out what it should be for your exact model of car rather than relying on the alignment place to know what it should be. Manufacturers figures should be a good starting point but usually tend towards safe handling and economy rather than performance. Plus they usually have a wide range to account for manufacturing tolerances.
Then do some research on forums to find out what others are using for a similar car.

Your spot on I just can’t find the correct geometry data for this car. There always seems to be an issue finding the data both on Corgi and Hunter machines. There’s no FR just a “sport” never heard of a “sport” in the 5F Leon. Starting to wonder should I just get them to align it to a MK7 Golf GTD spec etc. I’d be happy enough with settings that don’t shag the tyres so not looking for a fast road setup that will induce tyre wear etc.

Aren't the manufacturer's figures in the computer already, based on make, model, year? Or maybe it's the VIN, not sure.
When I see it done they just adjust it -ve, +ve until computer says YES.

Yes they are supposed to be but seems to be difficulty finding this model in their databases. 99% of the time your right they just get it to just within tolerance and that’s your lot

 

[revlimiter]

May be similar given the multi link setup...in the past had a few places tell me that the rear camber wasn’t adjustable on my mk4 golf - it was, 4wd version with multi link had possibility of adjusting the slots where the arm meets the chassis when the bolts are loosened.
Wondering if someone in the past has adjusted it slightly or it’s out due to an impact/driving and hasn’t been picked up as adjustable by the alignment guys as “it’s front wheel drive sure”.
Positive camber could give outer tyre wear potentially.

Like you I’ve been told in so many places that camber is not adjustable when it quite clearly is. Last place a went with the Hunter machine was it even showed the technician on the screen where the adjustment bolt was etc. Camber was adjusted to spec also last time round and it is obvious that there is negative camber so it’s definitely not the camber. As I’ve said tho I had no complaints about the last place I went car felt spot on afterwards but just seems to be this excessive toe in at the rear which could well be factory specs. This is why I’m enquiring what having the toe in set to 0 degrees would do to the handling etc

 

[Gambit]

Rear toe in is just to stabilize the rear of the car. not sure how the VW rear platform performs under compression but you need to make sure setting at 0 toe it doesn't increase the toe out under compression which in turn could cause snap oversteer in an extreme cornering situation - but this theory is all old technology/passive rear steer 90/00's technology etc id expect more modern multilink rear setups to be deal with all that nowadays

 

[revlimiter]

Rear toe in is just to stabilize the rear of the car. not sure how the VW rear platform performs under compression but you need to make sure setting at 0 toe it doesn't increase the toe out under compression which in turn could cause snap oversteer in an extreme cornering situation - but this theory is all old technology/passive rear steer 90/00's technology etc id expect more modern multilink rear setups to be deal with all that nowadays

That’s a good point a guess I thought it would only have been camber would change under compression etc but anything is possible with the amount of rubber joints in the back of these