Hot Hatches : Too big for their Boots?

[Gaz]

On the RMS Blog: They say variety is the spice of life, and if that's true, then car enthusiasts have probably never had it so good. These days, performance cars come in all shapes and sizes; from mid-size saloons hiding 500bhp+ V8 engines, to low-slung rear-wheel drive sports coupes set up to deliver a thrill at every corner. (Read the Full Article Here)



Read the Entire Article Here

 

[Cooper]

If 15 years ago, you told someone that an automatic Golf would be one of the best 4wd fast road cars about, the Lancer and Impreza boys would have you laughed out of the pub. Today they are blown into the weeds, by the aforementioned Golf.

Golf aside, I think the innovation in FWD is incredible - totally agree that it seemed that 200+bhp through the front wheels was felt 'too much', and how wrong we were.

 

[Reno_LV]

Great read!
P.s. Still hate the Golfs - got a spin in the latest GTD and R and it just doesn't feel right at all (for my liking)

 

[car life]

Great read, good to see vauxhall getting a mention, totally agree handling prob not the best but sure you want a hot hatch to be a handful. more power the better

 

[Blackie]

Makes for an interesting read that's for sure. I haven't driven any modern day hatches myself so I can't really offer an objective argument, but something many motoring journalists have said is that modern hot hatches lack that "rawness" that older models had and in some respects aren't just as "chuckable"

 

[Gaz]

Thanks guys.

Yes, as impressive as new hatches are, the increase in electronic aids and weight has greatly dulled some of the raw responsiveness of older models, diluting the purity somewhat. Which is something I tried to touch upon in the article. The upside is that you have the likes of a Golf which will be taken seriously as a threat to the likes of the latest WRX Sti, a notion which was laughable once. Is the increase in performance worth the decrease in purity though?

 

[Gaz]

I say all this as someone who had a run in a Golf R on Sunday and was very impressed by it. Ideally I'd have that AND an 80s hatch.

 

[Graham]

If 15 years ago, you told someone that an automatic Golf would be one of the best 4wd fast road cars about, the Lancer and Impreza boys would have you laughed out of the pub. Today they are blown into the weeds, by the aforementioned Golf.

Golf aside, I think the innovation in FWD is incredible - totally agree that it seemed that 200+bhp through the front wheels was felt 'too much', and how wrong we were.

Look back just 10 years ago to Santa Pod, the first 10sec 1/4 mile tin top was a Mitsubishi Evo that one of the big tuners in the UK built to prove a point, we took the McNeill RS Fords over that were punching 350-400bhp i'd say and were doing 13sec 1/4 miles which back then was proper WOW.

Now we can buy a brand spanking new 5dr family auto with launch control that will do a 1/4 mile in 13secs, it's just phenomenal how fast technology has moved on.

Makes for an interesting read that's for sure. I haven't driven any modern day hatches myself so I can't really offer an objective argument, but something many motoring journalists have said is that modern hot hatches lack that "rawness" that older models had and in some respects aren't just as "chuckable"

I am behind my colleagues in that statement, I have driven a couple of Golf R's and a punchy wee Seat model and have the latest Audi RS3 sportback coming in a few weeks to review which i must say i am looking forward to a lot but once i do drive them they bore the life out of me.

The are incredibly fast, incredibly comfortable and have more gadgets than i own, however they do not excite in any way at all, go into a bend at 100mph in a 205 GTi and get killed, go into the same bend at 100mph in a Golf R and come out the other end still singing along to Celine Dion full pelt and it genuinely feels like you have driven through at 30mph

no flair or drama, they all just so smart and do everything so perfectly now, anything post year 2000 i feel isn't a hot hatch but merely a ****ing fast hatch back

There are two cars that have left a lasting memory as something memorable and raw in the way they drive and deliver power and act on the road and that's the WRX STi and Alfa 4C

 

[Phil_D]

Great article Gaz...

 

[Woodcutter]

Very good article, really enjoyed that. A few cars mentioned that I used to own and have fond memories of.

So, who is the girl next door who catches your eye @Gaz ?!

 

[Gaz]

Your Mrs. . .

 

[Simon83]

A very interesting article! I have owned a few modern hot hatches and whilst I loved and enjoyed driving them, I didn't have too many memorable drives in them. The 3 of my most memorable drives were in a Mini one, a Kia Picanto and my wife's desiel Seat Ibiza. Driving and feeling these cars moving around below you at sensible speeds while still having fun is something I don't think a modern hot hatch can't match. Don't get me wrong I would have a Golf R /A45 AMG in a heart beat but I just think modern cars are filtering out the thrill of driving.

 

[2.2_Coupe]

Tis a shame there isnt mention of the Japanese market, with innovative cars like the Starlet GT Turbo, Celica GT4, Daihatsu Charade GTTi and even the Kei class turbo cars. They were pushing ferrari 0-60s in the 80s. Great read all the same though.

 

[PhilM]

A

Tis a shame there isnt mention of the Japanese market, with innovative cars like the Starlet GT Turbo, Celica GT4, Daihatsu Charade GTTi and even the Kei class turbo cars. They were pushing ferrari 0-60s in the 80s. Great read all the same though.

Agreed, (thought gtti was mentioned I think) though the article jumped from late 80s to the modern tanks pretty quick so only so much that can be squeezed in. Vti civic r5 gtt etc but where would you stop.

Love the wee starlet hot hatches get a good laugh driving them.

Phil

 

[Gaz]

I didn't forget vtis etc as God knows I owned enough of them, but concentrated on the main 4 popular brands in UK from 80s onwards so it wouldn't just read like a list. A lot of people in early 90s here still didn't know what vtec was!

 

[2.2_Coupe]

A


Agreed, (thought gtti was mentioned I think)
Phil

Indeed, I was trying to expand on that demographic, in fairness you're right, it could go on forever at the cost of the articles 'neatness' and become an extensive list.

Tis a shame the ep85 and 95 had to be converted to turbo, they had everything right there to do it. Having driven them, id still have an ep85 over my GTIR

 

[Coog]

If you want the old school performance (which by modern standards is not great), handling and capacity you simply need to look down the range. On most levels the Up! GT (if it ever becomes available) appears to be very comparable to the MK1 GTI Golf, certainly the stats and the way a Lupo GTi goes down a back road feels so damn close to the old Golf. A few savvy petrol heads are realising that you just need to think outside of the box if you want that old school hot hatch feel in a modern package (look at the way prices of the Lupo are going). I'm sure modern comparisons with the Twingo RS vs R5 GT, 108 GTi vs 205 GTi and Corsa VXR to the old GTE Astra could also be drawn.

The problem with the smaller hatches is that some of us will think they're a bit 'girly', a TDi A4 would destroy them off the lights, there are more practical options available for the money and like the hot hatches of yesteryear they aren't exactly dripping with toys like a MK7 Golf R is for example.

 

[Gaz]

If you want the old school performance (which by modern standards is not great), handling and capacity you simply need to look down the range. On most levels the Up! GT (if it ever becomes available) appears to be very comparable to the MK1 GTI Golf, certainly the stats and the way a Lupo GTi goes down a back road feels so damn close to the old Golf. A few savvy petrol heads are realising that you just need to think outside of the box if you want that old school hot hatch feel in a modern package (look at the way prices of the Lupo are going). I'm sure modern comparisons with the Twingo RS vs R5 GT, 108 GTi vs 205 GTi and Corsa VXR to the old GTE Astra could also be drawn.

The problem with the smaller hatches is that some of us will think they're a bit 'girly', a TDi A4 would destroy them off the lights, there are more practical options available for the money and like the hot hatches of yesteryear they aren't exactly dripping with toys like a MK7 Golf R is for example.

Good points there Coog. Perhaps the power race between the quickest hot hatches isn't just to compete with each other, it's to do with the fact that the average family diesel saloon nowadays (non-performance model) is as quick as hot hatches were a few years back.

 

[brendy]

If 15 years ago, you told someone that an automatic Golf would be one of the best 4wd fast road cars about, the Lancer and Impreza boys would have you laughed out of the pub. Today they are blown into the weeds, by the aforementioned Golf.

Sooooo wrong, given the noise alone, Id rather have my 14 year old boxer over a dull gowdy souped up repmobile

No matter how dirty it is, it still gets looks, the golf is rather forgettable given how many are on the roads.
Evos and Imprezas are the lads night out of cars, the golf is a tupperware party with cheese on a stick. Two different genres altogether.

 

[Gaz]

Sooooo wrong, given the noise alone, Id rather have my 14 year old boxer over a dull gowdy souped up repmobile

No matter how dirty it is, it still gets looks, the golf is rather forgettable given how many are on the roads.

It's anything but dull. I was actually surprised at the engine note and general aggressiveness of it when I got a run in one.

Does looks and being memorable or not really matter when you're behind the wheel and it goes like stink?

 

[Coog]

Good points there Coog. Perhaps the power race between the quickest hot hatches isn't just to compete with each other, it's to do with the fact that the average family diesel saloon nowadays (non-performance model) is as quick as hot hatches were a few years back.

Spot on. And it's not just the DERV saloons. I'm sure other examples could be found but a 1.0 Fiesta ecoboost has the same 0-60 time as a MK1 RS1600 Escort. Even a standard Escort Cosworth is fairly timid compared to todays offerings.

Sooooo wrong, given the noise alone, Id rather have my 14 year old boxer over a dull gowdy souped up repmobile

No matter how dirty it is, it still gets looks, the golf is rather forgettable given how many are on the roads.

For those of us wanting to slip under the radar and not attract attention the Golf is perfect. It's part of the recipe that makes the Golf GTi, etc such a great car.

 

[brendy]

It's anything but dull. I was actually surprised at the engine note and general aggressiveness of it when I got a run in one.

Does looks and being memorable or not really matter when you're behind the wheel and it goes like stink?

Its faking it, soundaktor deployed
Looks and being memorable are certainly worth thinking about if forking out £30k.

 

[Gaz]

Its faking it, soundaktor deployed
Looks and being memorable are certainly worth thinking about if forking out £30k.

Windows were down . I'm aware of the artificial sound which gets piped in, but even without that the car had a naturally rorty engine note - certainly noisier than any other OEM Golf I've been in. And particularly in race mode.

Looks are subjective I guess, though I don't think anyone has ever said the Golf R is a bad looking car. Some people don't like the overly done big wing/spoilers/vents approach of the Scooby and Evo type cars, as has been noted in the thread for the new Civic Type R. All horses for courses. In terms of being memorable, I guess that's subjective too and dependent on whether you view it as memorable purely on how it drives or on other factors.

 

[Stebo]

I am behind my colleagues in that statement, I have driven a couple of Golf R's and a punchy wee Seat model and have the latest Audi RS3 sportback coming in a few weeks to review which i must say i am looking forward to a lot but once i do drive them they bore the life out of me.

The are incredibly fast, incredibly comfortable and have more gadgets than i own, however they do not excite in any way at all, go into a bend at 100mph in a 205 GTi and get killed, go into the same bend at 100mph in a Golf R and come out the other end still singing along to Celine Dion full pelt and it genuinely feels like you have driven through at 30mph

no flair or drama, they all just so smart and do everything so perfectly now, anything post year 2000 i feel isn't a hot hatch but merely a ****ing fast hatch back

There are two cars that have left a lasting memory as something memorable and raw in the way they drive and deliver power and act on the road and that's the WRX STi and Alfa 4C

I get what you are saying, but I disagree somewhat. I think the problem now is that the hot-hatches are so quick that they need to be pushed farther towards their limit to get that excitement. You need to really learn what they are capable of and how much you can ask of them - something which is discovered over months rather than days.

I was blown away by the sheer pace of the M135i on a test drive and ordered one immediately, however after a few weeks of ownership I kina had the same feeling you did - bloody quick, but so capable you could be eating a bigmac meal while hitting corners at license loosing speeds. More recently though I have fallen back in love with it. As you get to know it and find it's limits (which take a while to find!) you can still get that rush, except now you are traveling a speeds that will end you if anything at all goes wrong. That might seem like a bad thing, but nobody is complaining that motorbikes or supercars are getting too fast to enjoy, and to enjoy them you're also traveling at speeds which will kill.

There are times that I get back into the house after driving a road I know like the back of my hand, and I have to sit in the car for a minute to chill out and get my heart rate back down - similar to the feeling I get after a good road on the motorbike. It is anything but boring, but at the same time I can then lift the shopping out of the boot.

The other thing I find is that when I had a focus ST and went for a hard run, I really felt like I was abusing the car and being really sore on it (as I imagine was similar with older "original" hot-hatches), whereas with the M135i I feel that it's taking it in it's stride, like the brakes and drive chain and chassis were made for it.

 

[FM155]

Good article, think you name checked most things there that were relevant in the UK market in the 80's, 90's and early 00's including the 147GTA.
Still want one of those or a later 3.2 GTV for a bit of craic once the prices come down to my levels lol..
Mate had a 145 cloverleaf which was the predecessor to the 147 and a cracking drive, very similar to my 155.

Driven a few more modern hatches etc but they deffo don't have the direct feeling of the lighter earlier cars. Speed isn't that important to me on the road, at least straight line speed. But I love a twisty b-road and a sweet handling car with a nice engine / note and those have always been my best drives.