Hot Hatches : Too big for their Boots?

[Stebo]

Good points. I mentioned in the article how hot hatches are getting so fast that they no longer feel like they fulfil our definition of what a 'hot hatch' has been - something you can use with abandon on a back road but well within your limits. Would you feel that's correct or should we just be moving with the times and accepting that things are going to be faster?

Yes all great debate there @Stebo

for me though a hot hatch is something you have to drive on the door handles and be scared of it.

modern cars are so fast its hard to actually get them on the limit for any decent length of road IMO

I would agree though regarding getting to know the cars, i only get this stuff for a week max which is enough to explore in depth but not maybe fully appreciate what a long term owner will feel

Having driven home this evening thinking about it I've came to a new conclusion, a lot more similar to your point - modern hot-hatches are not "hot-hatches". As you pretty much concluded, they're (high)performance cars with decent ride, decent(ish) mpg, an interior and a hatch-back boot. I kina took your article as making the point that they are no longer fun. My opinion is that they are more fun than ever, but no longer "hot hatches". Instead of hot-hatches, they're "hatch-back'd" performance cars! The thing is that as nostalgic and fun as the hot hatches of old were, there weren't too many back then that wouldn't have swapped it for a 300bhp performance car in a heart-beat (if they knew it wouldn't blow up, and had somewhere for the shopping!).

The issue is that performance cars back then were normally reserved for mature sensible people, who took them to tracks to drive fast because most weren't the most suitable for the Monday morning commute or shopping trip. They have now put them in the hands of the likes of me, and camouflaged them to blend into the road and look like any other 1.4lt hatch.

 

[PhilM]

id prefer a hot hatch to be fwd and brave bit faster than your average family saloon.

but then i wouldnt like to spend the money to run a golf R everyday/finance etc

so my hot hatch is for the weekend (practical? no)

semi slicks and good road and im all set. (and some valve stem oil seals admittedly)

Phil

 

[Arfur]

Perhaps you could argue that a modern day non-hot hatch is more fun in that case?

We live in a world obsessed with 0-60, bhp and torque. If it doesn't do a sub 8 minute Nurburgring lap it's barely worth mentioning, but perhaps the fun cars are the small engined, skinny tyred ones that everyone over looks? Sure - point to point it'll get destroyed by the faster cars, but does that make it less fun on a twisty road?

My 1.1 Seicento was a blast and I'm sure most folk would laugh their heads off at the thought of someone even suggesting that it was any craic at all. Basic motoring is absolutely brilliant fun and can still be had today, brand new from the dealerships. The biggest gripe is that not many of us could live with it day to day nor proudly discuss owning something akin to a washing machine on wheels down the local.

I'm in complete agreement... One of the most fun cars I've ever owned was my Pug 106 1.1 zest... Had it for 5.5 years drove the crap out of it 99% of the time and it never let me down... I could peddle it down a road far faster than many a modern car and have a bigger smile on my face.... I really miss that little beasty

 

[big_pete]

I think the last real feeling of driver and car working together died with the Clio 17/82's.

We have an ST Focus and while its great fun you still don't feel overly connected to it.

My Clio was one of the most fun cars I have ever owned. Every journey was a laugh and it was bearable and practical enough to be used as a car when needed.

Even my m3 doesn't feel as alive as that Clio did. Yet compare it to an e92 m3 and it feels like a raw animal.

I think you have to drive something crazy now to feel that buzz that you can get from an early 00's car.

A 458 is crazy, the steering feels so direct you might as well be turning the wheel with your bare hands but its not exactly a realistic option for most people lol

I don't think cars from the late 80's and early 90's were the best, they feel abit woolen and none are overly quick. Move on a generation and it really has the perfect balance of being raw enough to enjoy while having technology make welcome advances that aid the experience rather than "numb" it IMO

 

[Gaz]

I think the last real feeling of driver and car working together died with the Clio 17/82's.

We have an ST Focus and while its great fun you still don't feel overly connected to it.

My Clio was one of the most fun cars I have ever owned. Every journey was a laugh and it was bearable and practical enough to be used as a car when needed.

Even my m3 doesn't feel as alive as that Clio did. Yet compare it to an e92 m3 and it feels like a raw animal.

I think you have to drive something crazy now to feel that buzz that you can get from an early 00's car.

A 458 is crazy, the steering feels so direct you might as well be turning the wheel with your bare hands but its not exactly a realistic option for most people lol

I don't think cars from the late 80's and early 90's were the best, they feel abit woolen and none are overly quick. Move on a generation and it really has the perfect balance of being raw enough to enjoy while having technology make welcome advances that aid the experience rather than "numb" it IMO

I've yet to drive a Clio 182, though I'e never heard anything bad about them. Did have a good squirt in my brother's Clip 197 a while back and it greatly impressed me as an overall package, very responsive and agile.

In terms of 80s/90s cars I had a succession of Civic VTi's and similar which I enjoyed, but the RS Focus mk1 was a highlight. Enough power to make it entertaining, but also something which really grabs you by the scuff of the neck. Brother (again!) had a 306 GTi which was a cracking drive too.

 

[stuartyvilla]

I agree with @big_pete on the 182 front, although I have no real experience with many hot hatches so cannot comment on other cars, but my 182 does feel alive and alert all the time, always feels like it wants to be pushed and revved all the time, but as pete says if you are just driving around town it can do normal Clio as well, an all time great imo!

 

[TheLarneMan]

...Every journey was a laugh...

For me, this is what hot-hatches should be delivering - a laugh. They should be fun to drive, not necessarily 5s to 60mph or 300+ bhp.

Any time I take the 205 up the back roads, I know I'm going to get a fast, involved and exhilarating drive. You need to have your wits about you with the older cars - no ABS, no traction control, no stability control or any other electronic 'aids'.

Sure, the older hot hatches have more rattles and vibrations and aren't as refined as the new ones but that just adds to the experience. It makes you appreciate your daily driver a bit more!

 

[Gambit]

For me, this is what hot-hatches should be delivering - a laugh. They should be fun to drive, not necessarily 5s to 60mph or 300+ bhp.

Any time I take the 205 up the back roads, I know I'm going to get a fast, involved and exhilarating drive. You need to have your wits about you with the older cars - no ABS, no traction control, no stability control or any other electronic 'aids'.

Sure, the older hot hatches have more rattles and vibrations and aren't as refined as the new ones but that just adds to the experience. It makes you appreciate your daily driver a bit more!

i think thats it in a nutshell, i dont see my impreza as a hot hatch (nor golf R, S3 etc) they are the next step up from a hot hatch imo, i think anything 4wd should rule it out of hot hatch altogether tbh.

 

[Crow555]

I think I'm going to echo what @Stebo has already said, but here goes. As a teenager of the 90s, hot hatches were introduced to me via pre-Clarkson TopGear and Gran Turismo 2 mainly. Small, light hatches that needed raked to get the best of them, inside-rear cocked, lively rear ends, and yet, you didn't have to be into triple figures to get that experience. That is what the term 'hot-hatch' says to me. Back then you had the likes of the Clio Williams, the AX GT, the 106 GTi/Rallye and so on. Not powerful but still a hoot to drive now. Since then they've grown up to the likes of the Renaultsport Clios, new fiesta ST and 208GTI. If you prefer the older style of hot hatch, you had the RS Twingo, Suzuki Swift Sport and Fiat Panda 100hp to choose from. I sometimes catch myself looking at adverts for used Swift sports or Abarth 500/595s even though I have a Civic sitting in my drive.

I don't doubt the likes of the Golf R or the RS3 are great capable cars. They just aren't 'hot hatches'. In my head, they now occupy what once was held by the performance saloon sector (e.g. S4, Mondeo ST) simply in terms of the driving experience they give back to the driver.

TLR version

Fiesta ST = excitable collie puppy - hot hatch
Golf R = great big Alsatian - sports barge

 

[Coog]

I guess we all have different definitions. For me its a car that does the daily duties, takes the kids to school, your Granny out for lunch, yourself to meetings and takes the shopping home and then once it's done that you can take it a blast down a backroad, take it to a track day and generally have a bit of craic with it.

Rwd, FWD, 4x4, etc doesn't matter to me. It's neither a 2 seater sports car or a boring old saloon, its the best of both worlds. It was the reason behind the demise of the old British sports car. Why have one of those when a 205 could do the backroad quicker and with a boot full of golf clubs and two passengers too?

Being driven daily is what they were designed for. It's practical enough for daily living and fun enough for occasional blasts, so aside from the odd classic or rare machine I see no reason why they should be demoted to weekend only duties tbh. That's what an Elise, mx5 or S2000 is for. A GTI golf is meant to be used every day and there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't...

Without doubt most on here will be looking back, teary eyed in 20 years talking about the rawness of the mk7 R 'back in the day'.

 

[MarkM]

I've only ever owned one 'hot hatch' and it's very much still in use lol Can't believe they passed me by, the fun I could've been having!

 

[Gaz]

I think I'm going to echo what @Stebo has already said, but here goes. As a teenager of the 90s, hot hatches were introduced to me via pre-Clarkson TopGear and Gran Turismo 2 mainly. Small, light hatches that needed raked to get the best of them, inside-rear cocked, lively rear ends, and yet, you didn't have to be into triple figures to get that experience. That is what the term 'hot-hatch' says to me. Back then you had the likes of the Clio Williams, the AX GT, the 106 GTi/Rallye and so on. Not powerful but still a hoot to drive now. Since then they've grown up to the likes of the Renaultsport Clios, new fiesta ST and 208GTI. If you prefer the older style of hot hatch, you had the RS Twingo, Suzuki Swift Sport and Fiat Panda 100hp to choose from. I sometimes catch myself looking at adverts for used Swift sports or Abarth 500/595s even though I have a Civic sitting in my drive.

I don't doubt the likes of the Golf R or the RS3 are great capable cars. They just aren't 'hot hatches'. In my head, they now occupy what once was held by the performance saloon sector (e.g. S4, Mondeo ST) simply in terms of the driving experience they give back to the driver.

TLR version

Fiesta ST = excitable collie puppy - hot hatch
Golf R = great big Alsatian - sports barge

Some good points well made

It seems many of us don't classify the modern performance hatchbacks as 'hot hatches', not in the traditional sense anyway. Which is something I was hinting at in the article. However, I do believe the manufacturers still think of them in that vein; Peugeot's recent 208 GTi ad used footage from the 80's 205 ad to market the car in a very specific way to hot hatch fans, even though it's a substantially different car to the 205 in terms of size, weight and so on.

 

[Crow555]

I guess it boils down to what people want from a car. Personally if I had all the keys sat on a table in front of me, I'd be reaching for the Fiesta ST or Abarth 500 ones before anything else. (edit - having not driven any of them)

 

[Coog]

If the keys were on the table and you were told you will be driving 800 miles a week then perhaps your choice would change though.

 

[Crow555]

If I was doing 800 miles a week, I'd be driving a van or I'd hang myself.

 

[O.C.D]

Think this wee thing looks stunning but 33k plus extra ..nearly 50k where is the justification for that sort of money ??

 

[Simon998]

Think this wee thing looks stunning but 33k plus extra ..nearly 50k where is the justification for that sort of money ??

There was a wrapped green one of these in town yesterday that sounded like someone had angered Thor. Fanstaic sounding thing.

 

[O.C.D]

For 50k it would need to be !!

 

[MarkM]

For 50k it would need to be !!

£50k!!!!!

 

[Gaz]

Thought I'd revisit this after reading the Focus RS piece by @Graham. I made the point of hatches getting more and more powerful but losing driver involvement and agility as they also get heavier and chunkier. Does the new Focus RS buck the trend? It seems to be a lot of fun.

 

[Graham]

Thought I'd revisit this after reading the Focus RS piece by @Graham. I made the point of hatches getting more and more powerful but losing driver involvement and agility as they also get heavier and chunkier. Does the new Focus RS buck the trend? It seems to be a lot of fun.

It needs "driven" a prime example of lack of involvement is the Golf R and RS3 etc

Think WRX STi and the FRS isn't too far away with the Subaru being a little more mechanical and clunky

 

[big_pete]

I would add the new CTR in as involving too, they are an exciting steer and the gearbox is superb.

General rule of thumb seems to be proper 6 speed manual and decent steering weight keeps the excitement. DSG style stuff fast but utterly uninvolving.

The only cars.I have driven with flappy paddle gearboxes that I just couldn't imagine being better with a manual box are Ferraris and GTR's

 

[DC.]

Junior Hot Hatches/Super minis like the Mini Cooper S, DS3 Performance, Polo GTI, Renaultsport Clio & Fiesta ST have taken over from their bigger brothers IMO.

All have @ 200hp & are huge fun

 

[Petem86]

I think the last real feeling of driver and car working together died with the Clio 17/82's.

We have an ST Focus and while its great fun you still don't feel overly connected to it.

My Clio was one of the most fun cars I have ever owned. Every journey was a laugh and it was bearable and practical enough to be used as a car when needed.

you know my thoughts on the 172!
must admit, when i went from that to the VXR, it was a case of, yes, it goes like sh!t off a shovel, (actually did that the other day with cat poo, it does go well) but on the same roads, it was a case of "oh, that didnt feel as nice as the clio"

apples and oranges to an extent, maybe it was the 19" wheels compared to the 16s, who knows. Raw power the astra had it all day long, at nearly 100bhp extra eventually.

The golf gti is kind of in between, power in spades, and stays much more planted around the same roads, with the odd "....oh!!" moment

 

[BobSpounge]

It needs "driven" a prime example of lack of involvement is the Golf R and RS3 etc

Think WRX STi and the FRS isn't too far away with the Subaru being a little more mechanical and clunky

Agreed about the lack of involvement in an R. Push it hard enough though and it's a different story.