Oil – You get what you pay for!

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils.

The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, they are dug out of the ground and not manmade. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked” oils.

“Hydrocracked” oils have some advantages over their equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 and 5w-40 and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.

So, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?

Well, it all came about from a legal battle that took place in the USA more than ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight! They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included some “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics. The economics are very simple though.

If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case, it’s really only a highly processed mineral oil.

But, if you drive a high performance or modified car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day” or “1/4 mile”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

These oils cost more money to buy, because they cost a lot more money to make.

Very simply, you always get what you pay for, cheap oils contain cheap ingredients, what did you expect!

 

nav man

New Member
Agree with above, never a bad idea putting proper oil in an expensive engine,

I still find it hilarious when I'm in the motor factors though and some numpty heads out the door with a 2 pound oil filter and 45 quids worth of oil for their TD 306.
 

Stoney

RMS Regular
Location
lisburn
Drives
FN2 Type R GT
just when i have your attention oilman , can you answer one question ,

how do two oils to a similar standard, say VW 505.01 compare , what is the difference between VWs own PD oil ( quantum) and for instance what i use millers XFE-PD ( 505.01 of course) i know one is £10 per litre from the dealer and the other is £22 for 5 litres . but is there any major differences in the oils structure to warrant the use of one over another ... what are your personal prefrences on the above standard . oil changes every 6k circa.

look foward to what you have to say

stoney (y)
 

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8
Stoney,

This is a difficult one to answer without getting too technical.

VW 505.01 is a specification that many oils meet, it is specifically for the VW PD engine (Pumpe-Duse) but on fixed, not variable service schedules.

The VW pd engines are very severe on the oil, the mechanical fuel pump delivers fuel at approx. 25,000 psi!! to enable a very precise injector spray pattern which, in turn, gives excellent driving characteristics. The very high loads on the fuel pump will lead to VI improver shear down and oil viscosity loss if the engine is operated on lesser oils than the ones specified.

So, what's the difference?

Well, assuming that the can says MEETS really nothing as they have all passed the required tests. We sell many of these oils from different brands and at differing prices but in essence they do the same job. The factory fill oil is in fact the FUCHS one which we sell, they are German afterall!

The main difference (apart from price) is the pass level really.

Oils are built to meet a spec and I mean meet, not exceed. As always there are indefinately better quality oils that not only meet but well exceed the given spec and these are superior oils, often race or high reference oils.

That being said, unless your car is modified or used off road, you will probably not require them unless you want the best for your investment.

Cheers
Simon
 

Stoney

RMS Regular
Location
lisburn
Drives
FN2 Type R GT
im pretty well versed in PD technology :p

well my car is basically maxxed out on the std turbo and i like to use it , hence the frequent oil change intervals .

now , when my car was in warranty i used SEAT for servicing so i assume fuchs oils ( good info (y) ) then i did an oil change using castrol edge 50501,. after that i discovered millers PD oil and have been using it for 18months - 6 oil changes :worried:

is the castrol edge worth the premium or is millers at say 3 month intervals good enough ....what is a good oil to use to 50501 standards


all info appreciated

stephen
 

Burt2000

RMS Regular
Drives
Type RA Ltd
oilman where can buy these ester or POA type oils that you mention above as ive never heard of them,is there anythin you recommend in particular for an impreza

good to see you on the site
 

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8
im pretty well versed in PD technology :p

well my car is basically maxxed out on the std turbo and i like to use it , hence the frequent oil change intervals .

now , when my car was in warranty i used SEAT for servicing so i assume fuchs oils ( good info (y) ) then i did an oil change using castrol edge 50501,. after that i discovered millers PD oil and have been using it for 18months - 6 oil changes :worried:

is the castrol edge worth the premium or is millers at say 3 month intervals good enough ....what is a good oil to use to 50501 standards


all info appreciated

stephen
The most honest answer is the Castrol is a bit on the dear side. I would look at the following Fuchs one and change more frequently.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/performance_lubricants/pdf/fuchs/TITAN_SUPERSYN_PLUS_SAE_5W-40.pdf

If you want to go a different route, top quality shear stable 5w-40 I would recommend the following changed every 12000 max

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/performance_lubricants/pdf/silkolene/PRO S 5w-40 and 10w-50.pdf

That's the best I can advise really.

We do ship to Ireland frequently!

Cheers
Simon
http://www.opieoils.co.uk
 

Stoney

RMS Regular
Location
lisburn
Drives
FN2 Type R GT
that second one i would of classes as a petrol engine oil- learn something new every day

local ECP is a fuchs dealer so will try when my next interval is up ( changed it today lol)

amazing the difference some oil and a clean set of filters can make

again many thanks- good info (y)

stephen
 

grq

RMS Regular
that second one i would of classes as a petrol engine oil- learn something new every day

local ECP is a fuchs dealer so will try when my next interval is up ( changed it today lol)

amazing the difference some oil and a clean set of filters can make

again many thanks- good info (y)

stephen
I need an oil change too, wonder will they throw in a free sump if I buy the expensive stuff :p
 

aaron_m

RMS Regular
I got my first year service done today, and supplied my own oil which was silkolene pro-s 5w-40. I used this oil as it is recommended by almost everyone on the CTR owners forum. But the guy in the dealers said that although this oil was ok, i should use 0w-30 oil for such a high revving engine. i didnt say anything because i was sure the silkolene was better stuff to use and dealers dont normally use fully synthetic. any thoughts??
 

Johnski

RMS Regular
How do you know if your cars on a variable or fixed service interval seems to only relate to the german fleet? :confounded:

Never really understood the difference between the two, perhaps someone can help?
 

Marc

RMS Moderator
Location
Belfast
variable servicing the car brings on a service light when it needs serviced, with fixed servicing it is every 10 - 12k etc etc
 

Marc

RMS Moderator
Location
Belfast
when the service indicator is reset, there are 2 ways of doing it.

1 is to leave it on fixed schedule, every 10k

or if you are using good oil, and the car is compatable with variable servicing, set it to a variable service schedule, the oil sump has a sender plumed into the bottom of it, recording info and when it determines the oil is ready to be changed be it in 10k or 18k or whenever it will warn you 2000 or so ( not sure on the exact number) miles before on the information screen in the middle of the dash that you need a service soon
 

Johnski

RMS Regular
So back to my original question then....how do you know what service schedule its on? i understand the part about the service indicator coming on but it will come on regardless if its on fixed or variable, unless you've had the car from new its quite hard to tell really what schedule its on:confounded: unless you consult the service book but i remember audi changing my schedule because i was doing more miles(y)
 

Marc

RMS Moderator
Location
Belfast
I can go through my menus on the onboard computer and find that my car needs serviced in over 14000 miles, meaning that its on variable because i know fixed is every 10k on my car.

not sure if you have that on the golf, otherway i can find out is to plug my car into VAGCOM and read the blocks to tell me how many days and hours etc before it needs serviced.
 

Johnski

RMS Regular
I can go through my menus on the onboard computer and find that my car needs serviced in over 14000 miles, meaning that its on variable because i know fixed is every 10k on my car.

not sure if you have that on the golf, otherway i can find out is to plug your car into VAGCOM and read the blocks to tell me how many days and hours etc before it needs serviced.
:p theres the magic words...

It says on the vw website that most vw's come with longlife service intervals because of the better technology of oils and pd engines. I used long life oil on the S3 only because audi recommended it but i remember reading on one of the audi forums that they werent too fond of longlife oil. I've emailed oilman to resolve the problem:p
 

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8
I got my first year service done today, and supplied my own oil which was silkolene pro-s 5w-40. I used this oil as it is recommended by almost everyone on the CTR owners forum. But the guy in the dealers said that although this oil was ok, i should use 0w-30 oil for such a high revving engine. i didnt say anything because i was sure the silkolene was better stuff to use and dealers dont normally use fully synthetic. any thoughts??
Hi,

You can use 0w-30, it doesnt really matter. Most people use the Silkolene due to the quality of it. Ester based performance synthetics arent available in 0w-30, apart from one wich is from Motul.

As a point of interest the car comes with 0w-20 in it.

Cheers

Guy.
 

PJS

RMS Regular
Guy,
I know you don't do it, but do you have any opinion on Liqui Moly oil and associated products?
It's a brand that has my attention, with plans to dive into in a big way - but only if I'm not deluding myself that they're anything more than they really are.
As an ex-F1 sponsor for Jordan, it has me wondering if that's clouding my judgement.
 

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8
Guy,
I know you don't do it, but do you have any opinion on Liqui Moly oil and associated products?
It's a brand that has my attention, with plans to dive into in a big way - but only if I'm not deluding myself that they're anything more than they really are.
As an ex-F1 sponsor for Jordan, it has me wondering if that's clouding my judgement.
Im not a fan of these additives, we are yet to find one that is anygood and that wasnt abandoned by the motor industry in the 50's.

There is at the end of the day no substitute for quality oil.

If there anyone in particular you thinkng of or all of them?

Cheers

Guy.
 

metro1800

RMS Regular
Location
Maghera
Drives
405 Mi16
My thinking is if such oil additives are so good then why don't the oil companies add them from the start? They're not necessary imo
 

PJS

RMS Regular
I was contemplating the engine flushes - to remove carbon/soot build up on the sensors, etc.
Something similar to the Forte treatments.
Whilst I like the notion of CeraTec (ceramic being a good material), I'm sceptical of it in the same way I am of Teflon ones.
Like I said, given they were involved in F1 (one presumes supplying oils rather than using the medium purely for marketing purposes), that sways my thinking that they are merely marketeers like some of the notorious US ones.

Anyway, aside from their additives, what about their engine/gearbox oils? Much of a muchness or anything special?
 

PJS

RMS Regular
My thinking is if such oil additives are so good then why don't the oil companies add them from the start? They're not necessary imo
I read this all the time - and on one hand it makes perfect sense.
But, you only have to look at what Guy wrote/quoted above regarding the change by SAE on what constitutes a synthetic oil formulation to see the big companies are all laughing their way to the bank.
So, given additives cost money (same argument for petrol supplied to own brand forecourts and those of the supermarkets), it wouldn't surprise me if the bare minimum is being used, leaving the additional additive producers with some sort of market share for those who want extra securities - real or placebo.
 

oilman

RMS Regular
Location
Cornwall
Drives
RX8
My thinking is if such oil additives are so good then why don't the oil companies add them from the start? They're not necessary imo
I agree, oil comapanies are so inerested in making money, if these additives were any good the big players would have the market cornered already.

Cheers

Guy.
 
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