Spate of Keyless Car Thefts in NI

[Coog]

just a tinfoil lined bag in layman terms...same as a card sheath for contactless payment cards

And they wear out and become useless after a while apparently. I guess the liner breaks up with movement/use or something.

 

[Cooper]

I do think those who are most concerned about it will have plenty of tin foil in stock.

Biccy Tin for the win. May as well put a “keys in here” badge on it and leave out some chocolate hob knobs for them whilst we are at it.

Nasty business.

 

[anlygi]

Hopefully we see a return to keyless being an option rather than standard on every car. No doubt keyed will end up being an add-on option! If you're having to faff about with pouches is that really any more convenient than pressing a button and inserting a key? Who on earth even asked for it in the first place? Then when you see people who can walk around a huge Tesco Extra yet cannot be bothered to park their cars properly or walk a few extra metres to return a trolly, we're headed for the humans from Wall-E...

 

[Artoir]

4 digit pin before you start would solve all these issues.

 

[Eamo_vxr]

Apparently they can record the signal, say your at a garage filling up, follow the car home and return later and do it regardless where the keys are.
As said a pin code would solve it.

 

[Eager]

4 digit pin before you start would solve all these issues.

Nearly sure my mates pug 106 or something had this, way back.

 

[B6GUE]

4 digit pin before you start would solve all these issues.

Peugeot 306 days

 

[gcon45]

4 digit pin before you start would solve all these issues.

Sooooooo... a Citroen Xanita then?

 

[Dervhead]

Had the pin entry in the Saxo too iirc...

 

[svensktoppen]

Without getting too tinfoil hat about this, does anyone know how these devices actually work, signal strength, distances, walls, vehicles that are susceptible.

The attacks that work range extend your "key".

The key itself has a limited range, maybe a metre or two at most. Basically as close as you need to be to the car for it to unlock, or to start once you have unlocked it some other way.

A lot of people keep their keys close to the front door. If the key is as close to the door as you need to be to the car when using it then the signal from the key can be picked up by a £10 ebay gadget (a repeater) which has a much bigger range. The repeater then relays the signal from the key to another repeater near the car.

The repeaters are just that. They just extend the signal from the key and makes it appear like the key is close to the car even if it's not. So the car thinks the key is there and off you go.

As above, sometimes it's possible to record the signal from your key when out and about, then follow you home or into Tesco or whatever and replay the sequence. That's not so practical though as you need to be quite close to pick up the signal.

Most cars, once the car is started, the key does not need to be present any more.

Some newer cars put in additional counter measures, like ensuring the key is present even after the car has been started so the thieves won't get very far, to stop recorded signals being used, and so on.

But the truth is manufacturers don't really care, they just want to sell cars. And consumers are apparently asking for things like keyless entry, or starting the car with their mobile phone, and all the rest of it. None of it nobody actually needs...

None of those features are secure. It's technically possible to make them secure, but it is hard and expensive to get right so everyone just cobbles something up to "have the feature".

£10 will get you an RFID pouch off Amazon which prevents the signal from their device communicating with you key even if they are next to each other.

Any metal container will stop a radio signal. Like a £0:- biscuit tin.

Or don't keep it next to the door, that's £0:- too. And a good idea anyway as just inside the door is as far as most thieves go looking for keys and money if they actually break in.

 

[svensktoppen]

Hopefully we see a return to keyless being an option rather than standard on every car. No doubt keyed will end up being an add-on option! If you're having to faff about with pouches is that really any more convenient than pressing a button and inserting a key? Who on earth even asked for it in the first place? Then when you see people who can walk around a huge Tesco Extra yet cannot be bothered to park their cars properly or walk a few extra metres to return a trolly, we're headed for the humans from Wall-E...

Tiger food

As for pouches and stuff, it's even more silly than that! I've had "keyless" cars with a button to press to check the car is actually locked when you walk away

So why not just use that button to actually lock the car, and then you can check it by just pulling the handle without the car flippin' unlocking itself again

 

[soccersmyth]

How can the manufacturers of these cars get away with introducing them into the market knowing full well that they are easily robbed

 

[svensktoppen]

Because people buy them.

 

[Chris tii]

Keyless cars will soon be more expensive to insure. Or at least they should be!

 

[Chris100]

It just needs to be highlighted more, then manufacturers will be forced into doing something about it.

In most cases it will be a relatively cheap fix to sort it.

 

[stevieturbo]

Anyone know now that they've been at it once is that the key details saved ie could they lift it tonight even with the real keys miles away?

Can the police experts not advise ?

From the descriptions of how this is done, it would seem you're probably ok. But I'd be paranoid as ****....

That said, years ago fobs were supposed to change so that each push is a different signal, and there is some sort of change on a rolling basis, to prevent people capturing and using the same exact signal.
Whether that still applies today, no idea.

But one thing is for sure...thieves are always ahead of the game.

But a good old visual deterrent with a big lock like a discklok, is hard to beat.

 

[hutchy_belfast]

Can the police experts not advise ?

From the descriptions of how this is done, it would seem you're probably ok. But I'd be paranoid as ****....

That said, years ago fobs were supposed to change so that each push is a different signal, and there is some sort of change on a rolling basis, to prevent people capturing and using the same exact signal.
Whether that still applies today, no idea.

But one thing is for sure...thieves are always ahead of the game.

But a good old visual deterrent with a big lock like a discklok, is hard to beat.

Volvo Belfast "senior technician" said they had never heard of a Volvo going that way. He thought recoding keys was unnecessary and would be a fortune. Police say they don't know if it would achieve anything or I'm in the clear. Most people have said insurance unlikely to do anything except bump our premiums next year. New keys going to be dearer than my excess. Car not staying in drive until gates go on so if it goes somehow it goes I guess

 

[Nigelo]

Wonder if there's some link with the keyless thefts to that stripped BMW X3(?) found in Millisle, stolen from Holywood?

 

[Artoir]

Sooooooo... a Citroen Xanita then?
View attachment 256204

Bingo. Nearly every car has a touchscreen now, at least those with keyless entry. Problem solved.

The attacks that work range extend your "key".

The key itself has a limited range, maybe a metre or two at most. Basically as close as you need to be to the car for it to unlock, or to start once you have unlocked it some other way.

A lot of people keep their keys close to the front door. If the key is as close to the door as you need to be to the car when using it then the signal from the key can be picked up by a £10 ebay gadget (a repeater) which has a much bigger range. The repeater then relays the signal from the key to another repeater near the car.

The repeaters are just that. They just extend the signal from the key and makes it appear like the key is close to the car even if it's not. So the car thinks the key is there and off you go.

As above, sometimes it's possible to record the signal from your key when out and about, then follow you home or into Tesco or whatever and replay the sequence. That's not so practical though as you need to be quite close to pick up the signal.

Most cars, once the car is started, the key does not need to be present any more.

Some newer cars put in additional counter measures, like ensuring the key is present even after the car has been started so the thieves won't get very far, to stop recorded signals being used, and so on.

But the truth is manufacturers don't really care, they just want to sell cars. And consumers are apparently asking for things like keyless entry, or starting the car with their mobile phone, and all the rest of it. None of it nobody actually needs...

None of those features are secure. It's technically possible to make them secure, but it is hard and expensive to get right so everyone just cobbles something up to "have the feature".



Any metal container will stop a radio signal. Like a £0:- biscuit tin.

Or don't keep it next to the door, that's £0:- too. And a good idea anyway as just inside the door is as far as most thieves go looking for keys and money if they actually break in.

If some dirt bird wants to break into the house, I’d rather they take the keys and leave than wake you up standing over you with the kettle boiled.

 

[Eager]

The argument that ‘cause people buy them’ is that not a bit rubbish ?
Was it not the government that pressured manufacturers to include security in the mid 90’s ?

 

[eamon343]

Its almost as if the solution to this is to just use a key that you have to insert into a key hole in the car and turn it? Or am i over simplifying this?

 

[AMG]

4 digit pin before you start would solve all these issues.

306 had this back in the day, was all well and good when it was new, but it didn't take long for wear to show on buttons, so it was easy to work out what 4 digits were being used!

 

[stevieturbo]

Its almost as if the solution to this is to just use a key that you have to insert into a key hole in the car and turn it? Or am i over simplifying this?

Pretty sure cars were stolen when people used keys too...so yes, oversimplifying it. Really wasnt that difficult to break the steering lock or ignition switch.

All the new wonderful features manufacturers create...seem great and wonderful at the time, but as said, thieves are always right up there figuring out ways to be better thieves. It pays them well, risks seem to be very low as they know the government and authorities do not take it seriously.

It's a terrible reflection on society in general we need to be proactive with security etc, but that's just the way it is.

Trackers are pretty cheap, Disklocks are cheap. Our cars are huge investments, we need to try and protect them. It may not always work, but at least a visual deterrent may just push them on somewhere else in the first place. And a tracker etc may help alert you if it moves, and find it if it moves too far.

 

[Eager]

Pretty sure cars were stolen when people used keys too...so yes, oversimplifying it. Really wasnt that difficult to break the steering lock or ignition switch.

All the new wonderful features manufacturers create...seem great and wonderful at the time, but as said, thieves are always right up there figuring out ways to be better thieves. It pays them well, risks seem to be very low as they know the government and authorities do not take it seriously.

It's a terrible reflection on society in general we need to be proactive with security etc, but that's just the way it is.

Trackers are pretty cheap, Disklocks are cheap. Our cars are huge investments, we need to try and protect them. It may not always work, but at least a visual deterrent may just push them on somewhere else in the first place. And a tracker etc may help alert you if it moves, and find it if it moves too far.

My view on trackers is entirely pointless, when my skyline got stole many years ago police were standing beside it in west Belfast but told me they may have to leave the car if the hoods kick off. Just my 2p

 

[Pumesta]

My car has keyless start but not keyless entry, I have to push a button on the fob to unlock the doors. Do I have to worry