Welcome to the new Electric Vehicles Forum Section

gpaevo

RMS Regular
Location
North Down Riviera
Drives
F31 BMW
What about your EV battery production processes?

A battery for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tons of CO2. With a battery life of ten years and a mileage of 15,000 kilometres per year, that alone would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, according to the findings.
Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity and, in reality, the Tesla has emissions between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per kilometre - significantly more than a comparable diesel Mercedes.
 

pablo

RMS Moderator
Location
Glengrimley
right now, but battery tech will accelerate once more and more cars are electric. its still early days.

petrol/diesel cars have had 100+ years of development, electric cars (though they have been around for a LONG time) have only really got started.
 

NIEVO

RMS Regular
Location
NI
Drives
Model3
the Tesla has emissions between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per kilometre - significantly more than a comparable diesel Mercedes.

Yeah you see this is the sort of FUD thats doing the rounds. Please do not be part of the problem and spread this sort of thing without fact checking. This is just one of the many myths thats been well and truly debunked -


Read this Jalopnik (a respected car mag) piece -


Or how about Popular Mechanics - "Look, there are plenty of valid reasons to prefer internal combustion engines—quick refueling, great infrastructure, the sound of a Shelby GT350R at redline. But environmental superiority isn't one of them."

Fake News.

M.
 

gpaevo

RMS Regular
Location
North Down Riviera
Drives
F31 BMW
Yeah you see this is the sort of FUD thats doing the rounds. Please do not be part of the problem and spread this sort of thing without fact checking. This is just one of the many myths thats been well and truly debunked -


Read this Jalopnik (a respected car mag) piece -


Or how about Popular Mechanics - "Look, there are plenty of valid reasons to prefer internal combustion engines—quick refueling, great infrastructure, the sound of a Shelby GT350R at redline. But environmental superiority isn't one of them."

Fake News.

M.
You come across as having such a blinkered approach to EV's that anything negative said against them or their production and you immediately dismiss it as fake news. Surely you can see that there are damaging effects to the environment from their production and life. Have you seen what long term damage the extrication of lithium, cooper, cobalt does etc.


Like I said a few post back, EV's bore the balls off me, are not exciting BUT nowhere did I say I wouldn't own one. In fact I'm considering one as my next car for the daily commute as it makes sense in some ways for me (financially) but I also accept that they have a negative effect on our planet just like the ICE.
 

NIEVO

RMS Regular
Location
NI
Drives
Model3
You come across as having such a blinkered approach to EV's that anything negative said against them or their production and you immediately dismiss it as fake news.
I am an advocate for EVs, but that doesn't mean I take a blinkered approach, I take a factual one. I was a sceptic too until I did my research.

I've only mentioned Fake News once in this thread - on something that was clearly fake news.

Surely you can see that there are damaging effects to the environment from their production and life.
No argument from me there. There's no car that's *good* for the planet (walking or cycling or public transport is better of course). But there are ones that are less-bad.

M.
 

Blackie

RMS Regular
Location
Newtownabbey
Drives
'04 Clio Dynamiq
standardised batteries that you rent and swap out stations. roll in and roll out again with a fresh battery. Sure it will cost more than having your own battery and charger but any duff batteries are swallowed up in the system so no big bills. The big gain here isnt cost, its better quality of life for everyone.
Please excuse my ignorance here, but I don’t believe that any EV’s we already have, nor those currently in production allow for a simple “roll in and out again” process? You’d be talking a days work minimum from what I’ve seen of how EV’s are put together.

I could be wrong. On the off chance I’m not then this is one of the areas that needs to be addressed to make EV’s sustainable and provide similar longevity to fossil fuelled vehicles.
 

Cooper

Site Manager
Location
Belfast
Drives
Exige V6S
Please excuse my ignorance here, but I don’t believe that any EV’s we already have, nor those currently in production allow for a simple “roll in and out again” process? You’d be talking a days work minimum from what I’ve seen of how EV’s are put together.

I could be wrong. On the off chance I’m not then this is one of the areas that needs to be addressed to make EV’s sustainable and provide similar longevity to fossil fuelled vehicles.
Interesting point on longevity Brian. Sealed unit electric motor - no servicing required for it. No DPFs, no high pressure fuel pumps, turbos, timing chains/belts, head gaskets, EGRs, injectors... you see where I'm going here. As long as battery health holds up, and by all accounts they are doing a lot better than expected, your EV could be a hell of a lot more reliable than today's petrols and diesels.
 

Shmern

RMS Regular
Location
Newtownabbey
Drives
VX220 NA
Interesting thread......Long time Petrol head, TVRs, Fast Fords, Lightweight cars (still have a VX220), now driving electric for 5+ years as daily.

There are of course different reasons for not considering an EV, some valid, some less valid and some just nonsense.

1. Cost - undoubtedly more expensive to purchase..... but when you consider the full life cost including fuel and servicing costs, this changes dramtically (If you're in the Market for a new/newish car) - Valid concern

2. Sound - No defense here for EV, ICE cars sound better and some ICE sound soooo good, I still nearly snap my neck when an AMG or Quadrafoglia drives past on full chat, but mostly I've got over that and enjoy the silence (until an AMG drives past lol) - Valid Concern

3. No off street parking - 40% of UK households have no off street parking, charging at home will be difficult, meaning reliance on public charging which can be difficult - Valid point (for those 40%)

4. Range Anxiety - This one depends, the vast majority this isnt a valid concern, average daily distance in uk per day is 22miles, very doable in even the Gen 1 cars with under 100 miles range. Now most full EVs are on Gen 3 with 200+ miles, most peoples journeys should be fine. Only those that have 200+ trips everyday should have any range concerns, and even this sceanrio some of the cars are over 300miles these days, costs do go up of course. - Less Valid concern

5. EVs aren't exciting - Difficult one this as its definately subjective and personal, but my last 2 EV cars have been really nice and mildly exciting cars (Golf GTE and BMW i3) to drive, they really are fun, the torque is addictive. The Tesla Model 3 i plan on getting..... well haven driven a couple of these, I honestly cant see how anyone sees these as not exciting, someone earlier in the Thread quoted Chris Harris review, after he drove the Model 3, he went out and bought one himself..... Try it....... the experience may overcome your expectation. - Not valid concern (but very subjective)

6. EV's produce more CO2 than ICE cars - Honestly research more, you will see this has been clarified many many times, All transport (even walking!!!!) has a carbon impact, no one is saying EVs have zero carbon impact, they do have significantly less impact than ICE cars especially over time and especially as the generation of electricity gets cleaner then the gap widens. ESPECIALLY when you consider the impact of the digging up, refinement and delivery of the fuel for ICE, its not even close and shouldnt be an argument anymore. - NOT Valid (Nonsense)

7. Batteries will need replaced after 2-3 years - The old Top Gear position, proven over all existing EVs to date to be nonsense, Batteries are likely to outlast the physical car for that vast majority of situations, the batteries will not need replaced within a very short timescale, not even likely a longer timescale and even when they do come to the end of their usage in a vehicle, they can be removed and used in other settings like home or grid level battery storage and even broken down and recycled. There is no evidence to the contrary. - Not Valid concern

Just my views here, For daily drive .... I'll never go back to ICE, experience and running costs are so much better, but I recognise the second hand market has to grow, but EV's are really only 7-8 years in wide use , so this will take time.

All of the above has generally nothing to do with environmental concerns, apart from points 6 and 7 which with research should show as not true, they are all financial and experience things.
But one last thing specifically on the environmental side, something I heard at a recent event which really shocked me and made me think directly about emissions was, we all know the exhaust pipe emissions of a car are deadly, this is accepted, especially when we are in close proximity to the exhaust. Now think of those of you that have kids, you push them around in a pushchair in a busy town beside traffic, think of where their breathing the air..... we are subjecting our kids to air which is high in concentration of the fumes and particulate matter from ICE exhaust a few feet away..... scary when you think we are pushing our kids through this dirty air, while we walk 5-6 feet above this in relatively clearer air..... scary

Sorry for the lengthly post TLDR summary is Don't say EV's are dirtier than ICE not true, other concerns might be valid in some scenarios, except for the noise..... that is a VALID concern lol nothing better than a nice ICE engine sound :grinning:
 
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pobmk4

RMS Regular
Location
Ballymoney
Drives
Caddy 2K
Interesting to read so many opinions on this topic, some quite well researched posts and some "fake news" :monkey: along with them.

Unfortunately this is the way the market is heading, the same way as government pushed us between petrol and diesel vehicles with their incentives. I for one will eventually buy an EV as my own private car, infact if I could get an EV caddy for the business then I probably would do that too.

Eventually I will have the EV specialist end of my workshop within the next year (currently only IMI 3) and I'll be looking forward to seeing the changes over the next 5/10 years within the trade..... There will always be a place for the ICE but taxation and insurance costs will soon put alot of those beyond economic viability forcing our hand to jump on the wagon with everyone else.

Everyone's automatic negative response is about range and infrastructure....... But these are all well within reach for most people in NI, grants are available for home chargers etc it's just getting used to having to plug it in every night if you are near max range with your daily commute.

As for carbon footprint.....well.......sure it's just another thing affecting the planet. Unless we all start walking to work and don't require any form of vehicle for transport then we haven't much of a chance of changing things.
 

Artoir

RMS Regular
Location
Warrenpoint
Drives
V8
Before check I got up tonight on RMS I was watching a short documentary about German car manufacturers being left behind in the EV market, it seems that they are not willing to let go of the ICE.

I think many that have reservations about EV vehicles haven’t drove one and the range argument for the vast majority of folk is a problem manufactured in their own head. Remember when smartphones came out and people had to start charging their phones EVERYDAY instead of every week..... people got over it, much the same way as they’ll get over hooking their car in at night instead of visiting the pump once a week.


Anyone who doesn’t get excited by steam propulsion should be shot dead.
On the German thing, Daimler (The inventor of the internal combustion engine) announced in September they’re ceasing development of ICE completely and focusing on electric drivetrains. I honestly thought we were still decades out from that but the tide is turning faster than I thought possible until recently.
 

Cooper

Site Manager
Location
Belfast
Drives
Exige V6S
On the German thing, Daimler (The inventor of the internal combustion engine) announced in September they’re ceasing development of ICE completely and focusing on electric drivetrains. I honestly thought we were still decades out from that but the tide is turning faster than I thought possible until recently.
It’s not surprising given the R&D cost of ICEs never mind taking something else on. That, diesel gate, ratcheting up emissions standards like Euro 6. You can see the pressure some manufacturers are under - the new supra platform share is another example where R&D was avoided. Not to mention Musk upsetting the apple cart generally.

You are absolutely right - It is incredible how quickly things are moving. We are all driving Nokias and in a few years we will all be driving iPhones, or their Chinese facsimile.
 

Blackie

RMS Regular
Location
Newtownabbey
Drives
'04 Clio Dynamiq
Interesting point on longevity Brian. Sealed unit electric motor - no servicing required for it. No DPFs, no high pressure fuel pumps, turbos, timing chains/belts, head gaskets, EGRs, injectors... you see where I'm going here. As long as battery health holds up, and by all accounts they are doing a lot better than expected, your EV could be a hell of a lot more reliable than today's petrols and diesels.
And that’s exactly the point I’m making Andy, “battery health”. We know from experience with smaller rechargeable devices that battery health doesn’t hold up therefore lacking in longevity. For example, my last iPhone that I owned from new for two years, I let it run out of charge at least once a week and recharged as per the guidelines. At the end of two years the battery health was down to 85%. EV battery technology is not really any different, just on a larger scale.

EV’s are only as reliable as the battery allows. Constant charging and recharging reduces battery health and therefore impacts the longevity of EV’s.


Again, I’m not against EV’s, but as someone who relies heavily on second hand vehicles, as things stand a second hand EV is no contest for a second hand ICE powered car.

There needs to be more development done around battery technologies, around making them easier to change in EV’s than they currently are, cheaper to purchase etc to make them a viable option to the millions of folk like me who rely onto the second hand car market.
 
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pablo

RMS Moderator
Location
Glengrimley
Please excuse my ignorance here, but I don’t believe that any EV’s we already have, nor those currently in production allow for a simple “roll in and out again” process? You’d be talking a days work minimum from what I’ve seen of how EV’s are put together.

I could be wrong. On the off chance I’m not then this is one of the areas that needs to be addressed to make EV’s sustainable and provide similar longevity to fossil fuelled vehicles.
Most "new" tech starts off with propriotory (why cant I spell that?) tech then converges to standards. Not saying it will go that way especially early with so much IP in the battery itself but imo (as an engineer) it would make the most amount of sense to me to have fast swappable batteries. Petrol stations then become massive fast chargers hooked up to the grid.
 

Blackie

RMS Regular
Location
Newtownabbey
Drives
'04 Clio Dynamiq
Most "new" tech starts off with propriotory (why cant I spell that?) tech then converges to standards. Not saying it will go that way especially early with so much IP in the battery itself but imo (as an engineer) it would make the most amount of sense to me to have fast swappable batteries. Petrol stations then become massive fast chargers hooked up to the grid.
Absolutely! But if they were fast swappable and cheaper to buy, then and only then would a second hand EV become a viable option to myself and the many like me.
 

Cooper

Site Manager
Location
Belfast
Drives
Exige V6S
And that’s exactly the point I’m making Andy, “battery health”. We know from experience with smaller rechargeable devices that battery health doesn’t hold up therefore lacking in longevity.

EV’s are only as reliable as the battery allows. Constant charging and recharging reduces battery health and therefore impacts the longevity of EV’s.


Again, I’m not against EV’s, but as someone who relies heavily on second hand vehicles, as things stand a second hand EV is no contest for a second hand ICE powered car.

There needs to be more development done around battery technologies, around making them easier to change in EV’s than they currently are, cheaper to purchase etc to make them a viable option to the millions of folk like me who rely onto the second hand car market.
Here's a thread from the Tesla Motors Club Dutch section. Members have been plotting their remaining battery capacity. The trend extrapolated is something like 90% of battery capacity at 160,000 miles. Considering its early doors yet for this tech, its looking pretty good for a 10 year old Model 3 purchase, in 2029, when we will be too old to drive anyway(!)

1571300017295.png
 

quattro Rick

RMS Regular
Drives
quattro / M796
Here's a thread from the Tesla Motors Club Dutch section. Members have been plotting their remaining battery capacity. The trend extrapolated is something like 90% of battery capacity at 160,000 miles. Considering its early doors yet for this tech, its looking pretty good for a 10 year old Model 3 purchase, in 2029, when we will be too old to drive anyway(!)

View attachment 253695
Don't forget though that as that line decreases the range too will decrease, take phones as an example, within a year a battery that used to last a days usage drops to needing charged possibly twice thought the day for similar usage

For all but the in town users that would be a major issue

It does seem that ICE are rapidly shrinking in capacity for hot spec cars. Looks like the next C63 is possibly dropping 50% capacity to an I4 2.0 hybrid with 500+ hp

Think I'll be keeping my 5.0 for a good while longer 🙈 though bik on electric make them very favourable in company car choices.
 

Blackie

RMS Regular
Location
Newtownabbey
Drives
'04 Clio Dynamiq
Here's a thread from the Tesla Motors Club Dutch section. Members have been plotting their remaining battery capacity. The trend extrapolated is something like 90% of battery capacity at 160,000 miles. Considering its early doors yet for this tech, its looking pretty good for a 10 year old Model 3 purchase, in 2029, when we will be too old to drive anyway(!)

View attachment 253695
Great! Now if they could just make them cheaper to buy! Lol. EV’s are the future, no doubt about that. But they need to be the future for everyone, not just for those who have money!
 

pablo

RMS Moderator
Location
Glengrimley
can defo see a lot of people being priced out of car ownership over the next couple of decades, not just because of EV just as a general trend
 

Cooper

Site Manager
Location
Belfast
Drives
Exige V6S
can defo see a lot of people being priced out of car ownership over the next couple of decades, not just because of EV just as a general trend
With self driving and smarter car sharing services this is likely but not as big an issue as it may sound for most commuters who couldn't care less if they owned a car, and do so only my necessity. Not exactly for us!
 
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